Podcast Transcript

Erin Barisano: Well, thanks for joining us today, and we're so happy to have Dr. Steve Cheeseman as our guest on our podcast. And Steve, you've been with NCEA now for, for how long?

Steve Cheeseman: A little over a year, year and a few months. Yeah.

Erin Barisano: Okay, great, great. And, maybe you can just give us a, a little bit of insight into your educational journey.

I know that, that you have a ton of experience in educational leadership. What initially drew you into to Catholic Educational leadership?

Steve Cheeseman: Well into leadership, it's one of those things where you kind of get called up to do something. I was a teacher in a Catholic, junior, senior high school. I was asked to become a department chair to coordinate the middle school as part of our school, as it grew. From there, I went on to become, an assistant principal in another school. And then, that was actually a public middle school, where I was for a little bit. And then I came back to the school I was in the Catholic high school to become principal. And I was there for about nine years and very happy.

Probably never would've left except my superintendent wanted me to come to the office and didn't take no for an answer. I  ended up becoming an associate superintendent in the diocese of Rockville Center, and then superintendent of Bridgeport. And again, was quite happy where I was.

Steve Cheeseman: And then, all of a sudden, this sort of, popped up, the opportunity at NCEA. And I just saw it as a great opportunity to sort of look at things a little differently and take the work that I've done and what I've seen and know, bring that to, to the national level. And, you know, I knew there was a lot of people doing some great work out there.

And having that opportunity to sort of shine the light on that was something I was excited about.

Rob Birdsell: That's great. And Steve, I think I've heard from many people you've been traveling the country this first year, and a lot of people have that I've talked to, have appreciated you coming to their schools and their diocese. What are a couple things that stood out on your tour this first year as you were out? Meeting school leaders at, you know, in their schools?

Steve Cheeseman:Yeah. You know, I think what really surprised me, was the tremendous excitement and hope that people have. I use those words a lot because, you know, to describe my visits because I knew that. You know, post COVID, post pandemic that many schools were doing well. And you know, so I knew it was sort of a more hopeful time to be in Catholic schools. But what really impressed me as I've traveled around, is how people are taking advantage of that opportunity that's been given to them and sort of this reboot of Catholic schools and reimagining of what could be, and not just taking it for granted. You know, it would be very easy to say: "Hey, we got all these, we got all these new kids, because we were open."

But the most schools didn't do that, that I've come across. They really have stayed true to mission and in many cases double down on that mission. To ensure that as they're taking new students in, that they're a fit for the school. And they looked at it as an opportunity to really grow and really, you know, move from that sort of scarcity mindset to more of a mindset of growth.

And I, while I saw that locally I was surprised to see it so sort of globally as I traveled around, around the nation that, you know, people weren't just sitting back and saying, oh, enrollment's up. We're good. We don't need to worry about it. And you know, I really did it. I did these trips when I first started and I've decided to continue to do them.

Steve Cheeseman: Not to the same extent I was when I did my first year. But really to learn what was out there and to see what the needs were, and to see how we could better serve people in ministry, in Catholic education, you know, I think the other thing that surprised me is how similar the challenges are. You know, they may manifest themselves differently depending on the, you know, the population being served or the particular financial challenges of region. But at the end of the day, there are really many of the same challenges, that I faced in the east coast that people are facing on the West coast or down south.

Rob Birdsell: And, and what are some of those, what are some of those challenges? Sorry, Erin.

Erin Barisano: No, go.

Rob Birdsell: Steve, what are, as you mentioned, those challenges, what are some of the challenges that you saw?

Steve Cheeseman: Yeah, I think the biggest challenge is, teacher and leader development. Finding and forming good teachers and good leaders. The, you know, I think there is an urgent need to develop a leadership pipeline. And, you know, I think, one of the biggest challenges in that is not just finding the leaders, but finding leaders who understand the faith, and who are willing to continue their formation in the faith so that, they're not just good academic leaders or operational leaders, but really good faith leaders.

And I think that's a challenge for a lot of diocese, around the country. To find leaders and to find teachers. It's interesting though. I think people are being creative in how they're addressing that challenge. And again, you know, sometimes, you might expect, well, people will settle. But a lot of superintendents and a lot of principals are refusing to settle and instead saying, can't we be creative in how we approach this? And maybe the traditional model of what was required of a teacher or administrator, we could look at a little differently.

Erin Barisano: Yeah, you know, Steve, it's been really fun, kind of getting to know you and working with you. We had the opportunity to spend a day together when you visited diocese of Orange last February. And now I work on the President's Advisory Council. So it's been really kind of neat to see the evolution of NCEA under your leadership.

Can you share just, you know, a little bit about how, quite honestly, you're kind of shaking things up and really serving schools in a way that is relevant to them at this point.

Steve Cheeseman: Thank you. I think my biggest concern when I  took on this role, and it's one of the reasons why I did do that traveling so I could really get to understand what the needs were. As you know, I have one perspective of what the needs are as a superintendent, as a former superintendent, as a Catholic school principal. But that doesn't mean that's what everybody needs around the country. And trying to make sure that we serve and meet as many of those needs as possible. I would say if I had to categorize my goal, it's moving NCEA from, you know, a place where you go for resource and a place where you come together to go to workshops or, you know, immediate meet people, to take it from that and expand the notion of what we can do, to really look at, instead of just collecting data, for example, really looking strategically at data, and giving that data back to superintendents and to school leaders in ways that are helpful,  in ways that are meaningful. We're in the process of developing this new data dashboard, that will take every piece of data we can get our hands on nand put it into a data warehouse that is accessible, that is user friendly and allows the, the person with access to that data to really look for good trends. Look at, you know, regional trends, national trends, and more local trends. Everything from enrollment, up to salaries, you know, things like that. So our, I think that's an example of just we used to collect data and put it in A PDF and, and share it out. Now we're, we're looking to collect more data, but make sure that it's usable, and present in a way that is helpful. And I think that's just one example. You know, I think one of the biggest challenges we see in schools besides the teacher administrative shortage is how we ensure operational vitality into the future. And so we're taking some big swings in the next, you know, over the next two years on how we help school leaders develop those skills. You know, most of us went to, your traditional universities where we learned how to be educational leaders, but we were not necessarily formed in, in really well developed in some of the other areas of operational vitality. You know, a principal is kind of like a mini superintendent in a lot of ways if you compare it to the public school.

And there's a lot of skills that, that they need that, you know, just aren't in the, in the curriculum. So we're trying to really look at what those needs are and be agile in how we respond to them. We're also redoing our our acre assessment to provide better data that is more useful and really move beyond just providing. Data back on what students know, from that assessment of Catholic knowledge. Just, you know, in the past it was sort of, well, this is how they performed. And it was really done by class and you couldn't really dig too deep. And it was offered a couple of times during the course of their time, three times, at most, to a system where they can look at every student. Every year starting in second grade so that they could really look at student growth and better inform what the teacher's doing, um, in the classroom. So it drives not only the student's formation and development, but the teacher's formation and development. So I think that's another thing where we heard a need and, and we're trying to respond to that.

Rob Birdsell: Steve, have, when you were traveling around or in your role as superintendent, have you seen or can share with our listeners evolving governance trends, models? I'm at the board of the Cristo Rey Institute, which is the juridic person sponsoring three of the Cristo Rey schools, including the one in Erin's diocese, which is an innovative way for lay people and religious to collaborate and ensure the sponsorship.
But are, are you seeing any other trends or new ideas that jump out at you around governance?

Steve Cheeseman: Yeah. You know, I wouldn't say they're necessarily a lot of new ideas. Rather trying to re-look at or reimagine some of the ways that some of the ideas that have come up in the past, but try to do a better job at it, at implementing it maybe.

Erin Barisano: Yeah.

Steve Cheeseman: Things like consolidation. Right. You don't, instead of just closing schools or merging schools, really looking at a region more carefully.

And I would say the biggest difference is people are taking a much closer look at demographics, and trends and what the future looks like. And digging into, or at least trying as best they can, digging into each of the facilities and digging into, you know, the needs that people have in terms of trans. And trying to look at governance structures that relieve some of the administrative burden, at each school so that some of that could become part of a wider infrastructure. And I would say that part is probably more of a modern trend. I think, you know, I know in the past I've seen a couple of schools that have come together and merged and, you know, united under under one governance structure, but I think we're seeing a lot more of that, particularly in urban and rural settings where... And in different ways, obviously the way you would do it in urban setting is very different than a rural setting, but looking at ways to relieve some of the work of the principal, so that they can focus on being the faith and the academic leader and not have to worry about balancing the books every day, right?

So trying to centralize some of that back office infrastructure, to take the stress off of the schools. So I think that is, that's certainly an innovative approach that I'm seeing a lot more of. The other thing I would say, so for example, I serve as a board member on the school sisters of Notre Dame, of the... I think it's the Midwest Northeast, no, Northeast... I forget which is, which Northeast province I think it is. And one of the things there they've looked at is how do we support our sponsored ministries in a different way as we move to more of lay governance, how do we ensure that that charism is carried on to the next generation?

And so, the school sisters of Notre Dame or Notre Dame, depending on where you are in the country and who you ask, or which school you're at, you know, they've created this two-tiered board of limited jurisdictions to oversee all of their sponsored ministries. And, it's been interesting as one of the, they just did it. They started it right before I left Bridgeport. So as one of the sort of founding, board members, it's interesting to see that develop and some of the challenges of being in the middle of that. But I used the word challenge, but it really is, I think, a great opportunity to sort of answer those challenges, to ensure that schools have the support they need and they feel supported by the order, and also that the charism is carried out, while still giving them, probably a little more freedom perhaps, in terms of the management, if that makes sense. And it's unfortunate in that in one sense creates a degree of separation. From the order a little bit. But the connection I think is deeper because, you know, there are just fewer sisters to do the work and be involved. So by en encouraging lay people who can share that charism, and ensure that that charism, you know, stays alive while still bringing some professional competencies to the role. You know, I think that it actually strengthens them into the future.

Rob Birdsell: Yeah, I had an old Jesuit friend, who once said that, as more lay people got into leadership in Jesuit schools, the schools became more nation because they had to be. The old days they were Jesuit. 'cause you had 40 Jesuits walking around in the clerics. Now you have two. And so the intentionality of lay leaders to keep the charism alive has been, I think,  a very positive movement in that direction.

Steve Cheeseman: And I think that's the key word, that the intentionality that's a very key word. Yeah.

Erin Barisano: Yes.

Rob Birdsell: We're gonna take a quick pause and get a word from our sponsors.

 

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Rob Birdsell: There's our pause. Erin, do you wanna pick it up?

Erin Barisano: Yeah. So Steve, I wanted to circle back, you talked a little bit about, some of these bright spots on your nationwide tour and enrollment was one of them. I know here, you know, locally in the diocese of Orange, we're seeing flat enrollment, but what are you seeing nationwide and what's the data telling us?

Steve Cheeseman: I think the data is telling us a good story in that it grow growth and enrollment is relatively stable. I think this year we're still waiting on a couple of diocese, or a couple of schools within diocese to hand in their data. So we're at like nineties in terms of percentage of reporting, but so far we're less than a half a percent change in enrollment, which is amazing. To think where we were and, and where we are to see that dip is slight, but what's, I think, more positive, is that almost half of the diocese who've reported having have reported increased enrollment, so just under 50%, have shown some level of growth at their schools, even with consolidation or reorganization, trying to use resources more wisely. I think, to go back to that earlier question of some of the governance structures, but, you know, the reality is I think people expected post pandemic for enrollment to drop once everybody could go back to school. You know, back to their public school. And that didn't happen. Instead, people liked what they saw and they decided to stay.  And as I mentioned earlier, schools took advantage of that, and really focused on growth. So the good news is we're relatively stable. There are obviously, if you look at places that have school choice, you're seeing tremendous growth, which is good. Where you're seeing the most, or I should say sharpest declines are in some of the large urban, areas. Coincidentally, or I guess not coincidentally I should say, that's also where you're seeing a lot of people move out, right? So, as you'll remember, during COVID and right after COVID, a lot of people left the cities, left living in the city and moved out to the suburbs. So in those large urban centers, you're seeing a decline, but in the suburbs surrounding them, you're seeing either, an increase or stability as people come in. And one of the key metrics we look at are the kindergartners replacing the eighth graders? Right? So, it's one thing to grow in different places, but you wanna just make sure that cycle is  continuing on and we are seeing actual growth in the early childhood and kindergarten grades. In a lot of places, not everywhere, but in a lot of places. So that's really good signs. I think, you know, the federal tax credit, if that goes through, I think is a step in helping the  future possibilities. And at least changes, hopefully the conversation. Because certainly, you know, what we're seeing is that when there's, when affordability is not the issue, enrollment grows.

Rob Birdsell: Yeah, looking Florida. I mean, Florida's a great example where those guys, I mean, they're booming down there.

Steve Cheeseman: Yeah.

Rob Birdsell: Are you going to do a study on that impact? Like is the growth happening in voucher states exclusively? Is it happening outside of those and why?

Steve Cheeseman: Yeah. It isn't happening exclusively in those states. Obviously there's the biggest growth is there, but there is some spread beyond that. In many cases it's suburbs surrounding the urban centers, as I mentioned. We are going to do some work in researching that both through our university partners, and also, just today we announced a new hire, for NCEA. We hired a new director of research and data, Dr. Kyle Lee, who's superintendent of Lexington, Kentucky. He will come on as our new director of research and data,  and work with the universities and with other partners to do research and areas such as this. There's so many, so many things to look at. You know, so many variables to study.

Erin Barisano: Right. But I think, you know, again, an important thing, those, partners, right? And as you, as you said, our higher ed partners are a huge resource for us that we need to make sure that we're partnering with them to support this good, you know, work in K 12 that will affect what they do in higher ed. So that's great. One of the things that you had mentioned also is that, you know, kind of post pandemic instead of diluting Catholic identity. What you've observed is schools and diocese is really kind of doubling down on that mission and Catholic identity. What does that look like in practice today? You know, particularly as our schools are becoming even more diverse.

Steve Cheeseman: Yeah, I think what impresses me, not a direct answer to your question, but hopefully I'll get there. What impresses me is the balance of the pastoral approach that schools have when dealing with people from different faiths or people who believe certain things differently. While they deal with them pastorally at the same time, they don't dilute who they are and what they stand for. And I think it's a hard challenge, but one that many schools are really doing when left to do. Pastorally and, you know, in a way that is appropriate to their community. They've really risen to the occasion and done a great job. You know, I think in terms of what does it look like anyone who's ever walked into a Catholic school can almost immediately tell the difference if Catholic identity is alive. And I don't mean just by seeing symbols. Right? It's not the cross on the wall or the picture, or the stained glass. It's really the interaction that you see, of the people within the building. It's the way that they greet each other, the way that they speak to each other. It's what you see around the classroom, the conversations around virtue. You know, even something as synced of the distinction between, you know, a values based education and a virtues based education, simple things like that. And the language that people use instantly indicates, sort of how Catholic identity is woven throughout the curriculum. You know when you hear students talk about service projects in a way that includes some sort of theological reflection or some sort of thought about. You know how this is really living out the gospel as opposed to, I had to do 12 hours of community service for this reason, right? Those are all simple things that tell you, you know, that that Catholic identity is woven, you know, intentionally into everything that happens in a school. And it's one of those things, sometimes it's hard to, to quantify and check the box, but you certainly can feel it and see it. And, you know, again, so much is observed by the interaction. You know, when I was principal, I could walk into a classroom and know if the teacher was putting on a show, right? Or if this is what always happened. When I was in the diocesan office, I could walk down the hall with a principal and just by the way the students responded to that person, I could tell a lot. The same is true for Catholic identity. You, you can tell when that is intentionally woven in.

Rob Birdsell: That's great, Steve. Before we head into some fun closing questions for you, I think we'd be remiss not to talk about. Technology, AI Online learning. The provost at Seattle University recently said that if a high school doesn't offer online courses, they can't call themselves college prep. 50% of higher ed is delivered online now. AI is, you know, the topic of every conference we go to. We'd love to just give you a chance to talk a little bit about, your views on technology, AI, and we could do a whole other podcast on this, so I recognize that. But wanted to give you a chance to share with our listeners your thoughts on AI technology, online learning, Catholic education today.

Steve Cheeseman: Yeah, I think, first off, to go directly to the statement, I mostly agree with that, in the sense that, I think creating students with a sense of digital literacy is extremely important before they go to the university. So I think that's one reason I would agree with that.

I also think, there are sometimes people who say, let's totally avoid it, and let's not, let's leave it outta the classroom. You know? They have enough of it at home. We don't need to address it. The reality is they're not using it correctly at home often. So, you know, we have a responsibility, I would say, a moral responsibility teach young people how to use technology in a way that is ethical, in a way that is moral and in a way that, you know, doesn't lead them down a path that we don't want them to go down, right? We have to give them the guardrails. Because if we don't give them the guardrails, we all know what happens. You know, we all know what could happen. So, I'm not saying technology has to be everywhere in a school and you know, has to be all about technology, but I think we can't ignore it either. So I would add that and then I would also, I think the third thing I would say, the ability to integrate technology and what's out there, wether be through online courses, or, you know, even just research. Opening that world up to young people, is extremely important. Not only does it allow young people to take courses that they might not otherwise be able to take, but it allows them experiences that they may never have. Now, granted, it may not be the same as the real experience like visiting a place, right? The virtual experience isn't the same as the real it a gives them experience, right? That hopefully there'll come a time where they'll have the opportunity to experience it in real life because they've been exposed to it and it's now something that, you know, the sort of, the fire's been lit, within them to explore further. So I would agree for those three reasons I would agree with it. I do think we have to be really careful in ensuring the humanity right at the school level. And I think the Pope just talked about that. I had the opportunity to be at the youth ministry conference where, the Pope Dialogued with young people. And it was incredible to watch. But, you know, I was inspired by his message of, we can't ignore it, but we have to ensure humanity, and use it as a tool just like everything else. The key is developing, is developing those guardrails, which is hard when something changes every five minutes, right?

So, that's the challenge with ai, with other things that, with other technologies is that it's just exponential, the growth and, so I think that's the scary part.

Rob Birdsell: It's interesting, I gave a talk to the presidents and principals of the Christian brothers schools two and a half years ago, and I asked how many of them were using AI. So 50 or so administrators, one hand went up. I spoke to a group of principals about three weeks ago, in a very rural district, about 25 principals of presidents.

When I asked the question, every hand went up when I said, how many of you use it weekly? They all stayed up. How many of you use it daily? They almost all stayed up. So to your point, it's here and it's great to see them, you know, these administrators using it, 'cause you gotta use it if you're gonna teach it and you know, how do you build the guardrails if you aren't using it? So, good comment Steve. Appreciate that perspective.

Okay, Erin: Steve's busy, but we got some fun questions here at the end. Do you wanna take a stab at one of them?

Erin Barisano:Yeah. So Steve I'd love for you to share maybe your favorite Catholic school memory. This could be either a student or, a teacher or principal, but yeah, favorite Catholic school memory to share with the audience.

Steve Cheeseman: Yeah. So when I was in 10th grade, sister Mary Donald was my English teacher...

Rob Birdsell: Where was this?

Steve Cheeseman: This was at High School in Riverhead on Long Island in. So I was a 10th grader English Lit. She called us up to get our tests and I walked up and she handed me my test. I walked back, I got an 85 and I was so excited. I got an 85, and of course, I'm walking back to my seat as a 10th grader. Like, yes, I got an 85 and I sit back down and she goes like this. Mr. Cheeseman come up here. Sends me outside. So, I'm standing outside. I'm like, what did I do? All right, I guess I talked, I shouldn't have talked. Whatever.

She just came outside and she got right in my face and she said, don't ever settle for 85%. You are so much better than 85% and that, has stuck with me my entire life. Do not settle for 85%. And it's a message I've tried to share with my students over time is that, you know, you can do better and you shouldn't be happy about that. You should always be just trying to do better. You know, interesting, same story, now, same sister. Fast forward a bunch of years, I'm now principal of the same school. She is no longer in the classroom, she's down in guidance and I am walking the hall as a principal. She's walking towards me, and this freshman comes buzzing by me running to class and she stops him and she says, we don't run. Go back, turn around and walk. So freshman turns around, walks. I felt so bad. Now I stopped in my tracks 'cause there is no way I'm getting involved in this conversation. So I just stop in my trash and let sister handle it. Student walks back and she says, that was better. I think you can do better. Go back and do it again. Goes back, back, she's like, he comes back and so one more time. Makes him go back. Does it again for a third time. Makes him walk down the hallway, she say, now you can go to class. Now, you may go to class, she says, so he goes on, I now resume walking she walks and as she passes, she leans over and she just says, wanted to see if I still had it in me, just kept on walking. And, and I said, sister, you will always have it in you. Even I stopped and I was gonna turn back and walk around.

Erin Barisano: What? What are those giants in Catholic education. Yeah. We stand on the shoulders of giants and yeah. What a great story. Thank you.

Rob Birdsell: That was great. Another one of these rapid fire ones for you. What is one book that every Catholic school leader should read this year?

Rob Birdsell: So a more popular one, but I think a baseline one, right? A basic I think a basic book that every Catholic school teacher should read is the Holy Sees Teaching on Catholic Schools, where it talks about the five essential marks of the Catholic school. So I would say if you haven't read that, you should read that. Really important. And then, you know, more modern there's a couple, about six months ago I read. Actually that was probably a year ago. Brett Salkeld book on what was it called? It's about bringing Catholic education into every classroom. "Educating for Eternity", I think is the name of it. That was a really good book about how you can bring Catholic education into everything. And then, Jeanette Bozeman and Michael Boyle. He just put out a book. Unique and unrepeatable great book about, you know, the dignity of every child and educating and creating education that serves every child, no matter their, you know, their learning style, their learning needs, but how we serve all God's children. I think both of those are great reads.

Rob Birdsell: Mike is doing some amazing work, around Catholic education inclusivity. So highly recommend our listeners check out St. Louis University and some of the work Mike is doing there. It's, I think it's remarkable. He's been...

Steve Cheeseman: Yeah, he's doing incredible work and you know, we just put together just recently this task force on serving students with special needs because there are people like Michael who are doing incredible work. And my thought is we don't need to replicate that, but we need to put our arms around it. And make sure that everybody knows what these resources are. So of course Michael, you know, is certainly on this task force. And you know, along with some other people and university partners and other experts in the field who are just doing it. Incredible work. And again, I think that goes back to the evolution of NCEA is, we don't need to do everything. But we need to be, sort of the national voice for Catholic education,  we need to be able to put our arms around it and be able to point people in the right direction. So that when there's a need, we can direct them to someone who can support them if it's not us.

Rob Birdsell: Yeah. Love that. Well, Steve, thank you for joining us today and we ask all of our listeners one final question, which we didn't prompt you with, and so our listeners, will know it's coming, but who is your greatest teacher and why?

Steve Cheeseman: Besides the one I talked about earlier, I would say my greatest teacher, was a woman named Gloria Martinez. And the reason she was the greatest teacher is I could never understand how she did this. I had her in the morning and I had her in the afternoon, and she was always incredibly enthusiastic, incredibly, like all she cared about was you learning and how you were doing. And she cared about your mental health long before that was a thing, you know, making sure that you were good. Talk about educating the whole child. You know, she was a gift to education, certainly Catholic education. But I had, I had her couple of times during the course of my high school career, both for re religion, and for sociology, and I think a psychology course, but an amazing woman who gave 110%, even though I know that's not possible, but gave everything she could to her students, and really cared about their success.

Rob Birdsell: Great. Well, Steve, thank you for joining us. We're gonna let you go while Erin and I wrap this up here, but, for our listeners, ncea.org to learn more about your organization and we're excited to have you leading the ship with those ships right behind you.

Steve Cheeseman: Thank you, thank you very much. This has been great. I appreciate the opportunity to to chat. Thanks.

Rob Birdsell: Look forward to seeing you soon. Thanks, Steve.

Steve Cheeseman: Thanks. Bye.