Podcast Transcript

Rob Birdsell: Hello, and welcome to The Next Class. I'm Rob Birdsell. Special day. I'm joined by both of my co-hosts, Kent Hickey and Erin Barisano. This should be a fun one, Kent. First start with you. How are you?

Kent Hickey: Doing fine here, Rob. Let me look outside to see how things look in the Seattle area. Oh, it's raining!

So this is really surprising. It's a rainy day here, but I'm very, very happy because if you look over my shoulder, you'll see I just put up one of my favorite pictures. It's Brett Fav and he's saying to me, an autograph can't be the best.

So that's coming from Brett Fav. Right. So, anyway...

Rob Birdsell: He's had a few

Kent Hickey: Well that actually was pre controversy.

Rob Birdsell: Okay. Okay. And Erin, you're coming to us from a new office.

Erin Barisano: I'm at home today and this is actually my husband's editing office. So from sunny Southern California. Let me look outside. Oh wait, it's 75 degrees and sunny, so what a surprise.

Rob Birdsell: I think I can top both of you guys. It's about 19 and sunny here with about a foot of snow on the ground.

Kent Hickey: Nice, nice.

Rob Birdsell: It is. No, it's great. We haven't had snow like this in Chicago in years. I didn't use my snowblower for three years until I just didn't tune it up this summer, and I am kicking myself like, what, the first year I didn't tune up the snowblower. We get constant snow.

Anyway. This is a little different format. Erin, I'm gonna turn it over to you to get us going here.

Erin Barisano: Great. Well, thanks Rob. Good to be with you guys. And, this is a little bit of a different format because I will be guiding the conversation, and shooting questions at both you and Kent.

Today's episode is based on your recent white paper that you co-authored. It's on the Catholic School Board, sacred Work For An Apostolic Work. So, I'd like to begin with, first of all, I love the title. And we'll get into it in a little bit, about that kind of intentionality around some of the language. But, your timing of this. You wrote this a few months ago, and it's, you know, I would say in the world of Catholic education, very, very timely. What prompted you to write this now? What are some of the trends that you're seeing in Catholic school governance? You know, kind of over the past 20 years in, looking into the future.

Kent Hickey: Rob, you wanna jump in or you want me to jump in here?

Rob Birdsell: Well, I can give a brief.

Kent Hickey: Sure.

Rob Birdsell: We can go deeper, but, Kent and I through our work at ILEE, along with you, have seen a big shift the past few years in the role boards are playing. The relationship between the board and the president seems to, in many places, be, a bit cantankerous, shall we say. And so, that led us to think about this and to write the paper. But, you know, to your second question, Erin, I remember when I was at Market High as a student before Kent and I got there, as teachers and administrators, and it was an early board. At Market High, they were beginning to turn to lay leaders to help them guide it.

And so it's really been in the past 30 to 40 years that we've seen these boards come into existence. And with that alternative to kind to dig deeper into sort of the origin of the paper and boards in general.

Kent Hickey: Yeah, it has been over the last 30 or 40 years and it's been a really good thing. It's been a really good thing to have boards, whether advisory boards or corporate boards or what have you. This has been really a positive thing. I think, uh, build on what Rob said. If you remember, our first white paper was all about the spiritual CEO, right?

And I would say this is a continuation of that. That it's trying to just pull us back constantly to why we're doing what we're doing. And it's all about Jesus. It's all about our faith, and we need to look at everything that we do through that lens. And that includes the board and particularly the head of school relationship and how that works.

It's in order for a school to be successful, that has to be a really, really good relationship. But as Rob alluded to, over that, I would say this. Actually predates the pandemic. I think the work of a president has become more and more difficult. I think the expectations are higher.

It's kind of the Mary Poppins syndrome, practically perfect in every way. And so I think there's been some tensions around this, and I think one of the things that we're clear about in what we wrote, there's actually two papers I'd reference here, going back and forth. One is the white paper that, Erin, you referred to.

Erin Barisano: Right.

Kent Hickey: But also this protocol. Rich Barth, who's a wonderful. He was the nativity board chair in Seattle. He and I co-wrote, they kind of are tandem documents, but I think one of the things that we wanna make sure that we were clear about is these are good people, all of them doing good work, the presidents, the boards, and what have you, but there's a real problem and what can we do to address that?

Erin Barisano: So, let's talk about that problem. You know, why? Why is this source of friction? You stated, and I think very, very accurately, we're talking about good people here, heads of schools, great people dedicating their lives to leading Catholic education boards. Our board members really good people who are investing their time, their talent, their treasure into Catholic education.

So why is there this source of friction?

Rob Birdsell: That's what we hope to get into today, but I think one of them, sometimes these board members treat the school as a business. They're talking about margin. An apostolic work. It's not a business. And I think that's very important for all board members to understand, that it is the work of the church. And I think many of them come to this from a business lens.

They boards and they have a board themselves. And so that's their frame of reference. Which makes sense. Like if you sit on two corporate boards and you have a board that, you report to, you're gonna this similarly.

Kent Hickey: Yeah, the Catholic School Board is not experienced very differently from what Rob just described. It's really not a Catholic school board. So for example, Catholic school boards, they don't make decisions. They discern and discern is grounded in spirituality. So one of the major issues is, you know, how and how often are our boards really immersed?

In, in prayer, in contemplation, and doing things together. Uh, but I'd say here, here's, here's what I, uh, this would be a little more specific about where, where I, where I think that the issue is. Um, I think sometimes it may be the governance structure is off, but that's usually not it. I mean, there's no perfect governance structure.

No. No one's ever found it, and no one ever will. Um, but it, it's generally, it's really generally not that. Um, I also, as we already alluded to, I, there probably are some bad actors. Yeah. Actually I think there are some bad actors. Um, but those are few and far between. I, I really think the. The crux of it is that there are not protocols set up that require ongoing communication between the president and the board.

And so if the president kind of decides to go off on his own or her own a little bit, or the board does the same, there's not really a mechanism in place that requires the kind of dialogue that that really has to happen. And um, so I think that what we really should be looking at is. And again, I wouldn't call it con contract language, although it could be, I would call it more like protocols that, um, establish, um, communication processes, um, that people can rely upon when things get tense, when things aren't tense.

When everyone's getting along. Yeah, there's no need for, for rules 'cause everyone's getting along, but that's not what rules are for, you know, and so rules are generally designed for when, when there's ongoing tension or, or potential conflict. So I would say what we really need to look at, uh, well, final comment I'll make is, um, what contract language does exist?

Is not, does not take the role of the president, is not helpful to the role of the president in a lot of ways that it's, it's very one sided for the board chair, for example, if there's a conflict, there's very little a president can do and that, and this is from reviewing countless contracts. So I think there has to be a more balanced relationship between the president and the board, particularly the board chair.

It has to be. Written down in some kind of protocol and the grounding of everything is communication. 'cause that often is the source of the tension.

Erin Barisano: Great. And I think, you summed it up nicely, Kent, and I agree with you. I think it all comes down to communication. What are the rules that we set in place for when that tension starts, you know, and an everyday basis. You don't need to refer to the rules,  but when there is that, that source of friction that we're starting to identify, go back to those.

So I love that. The title of this white paper, sacred work for an Apostolic Work. I love that language. I think it's so, so beautiful and, I'm guessing very, very intentional. So, can you just kind of share how you, landed on that language, particularly that apostolic work? How is this school board work, apostolic work?

Kent Hickey: Rob, Rob, don't you think when we came up that title's hitting me now we were channeling our inner Aaron Barto. I think, I think that's where, say where does it came from? I think I have a feeling it's, I have a feeling it's from Erin, you know, through these conversations there's always, ah, it's always looking at it through that lens.

But, uh, go ahead Rob. I'm sorry. That's what struck me there.

Rob Birdsell: Well, um, actually one of the things I remember when we're coming up with the title was an example you used Kent, of how and where to start board meetings, and your idea was start in the chapel. And not for a quick three minute cursory prayer, but for actually 30 minutes of contemplation. It could be a lection, it could be a guided meditation, but actual intentional prayer.That really framed the title for me with that example and that concrete image that you used at Seattle Prep.

Kent Hickey: Well, I would say that, that, that's not my idea. That's our idea, you know, our focal point of what we're trying to do at ile. So this is just on, on ongoing discussions, but I'd say every, every, uh, school I've been at, um. Um, there's been a, well, I'll say that I, I, something that I really insisted upon and usually was working with a board chair that also wanted it, you know, for that reason too is, but I'd say Rob not only starting in the chapel, although it's essential that.

Meetings start in the chapel or it's, it can't be this perfunctory two minute prayer, but also I'd say ending how it ends. Uh, there was a wonderful, uh, pace person for the old Oregon province, the Jesuit Oregon Province, uh, provincial assistant for secondary ed ci, uh, Cindy Repel, who was a great principal at Gonzaga Prep in Spokane as well.

But anyway, what I remember when we would have these meetings is. We would always end our meetings together. This would be the five or six schools in the, in the province at the time. We would go around the room and Cindy would ask the question, where, where in our time together did you sense consolation?

And where in our time together did you sense desolation? So I, I'd say it's the beginning and the end that frames it. So that during it, okay, during it, there is this. Spirit, and that's where discernment comes alive and such. Um, so yeah, that's a long-winded way of, of saying that. I think that this title comes from the fact that it really helps board members to understand to go to Rob.

Rob already pointed out you're not on a, you're not on Boeing's board.

Erin Barisano: Yeah.

Kent Hickey: And you're not on the local private school board either. This is an apostolic work of the church. You're caring for something that God has given to us, a school and the children. And so that's a very different, different way to proceed as a board than, than than other boards.

Erin Barisano: And why?

Rob Birdsell: Let's take a quick break here to hear from our sponsors.

 

SPONSOR BREAK

 

Erin Barisano: Okay. Yeah. So, Kent, before the break, you were talking about the way you start the meeting and also the way you end the meeting, and I think that that's beautiful. Why do you think this is so challenging though, for boards to embrace those. These are beautiful, beautiful spiritual practices that you're describing. Why is, why is it challenging?

Kent Hickey: Well, first of all, I don't think it's challenging once it gets going, like once it gets going, then, and you know, at the schools I was at again, we'd also do retreats. We tried to do overnight retreats, you know, and, and such. If we could, you know, and, and just do, and, and it was truly retreat, not like a workshop and this kind of thing.

Once it gets going, then board members are like, oh, that's like my favorite board to work on, because they're, they're digging deep into their own spirituality and such. I think the problem is just getting it off the ground because people come in with certain expectations. 'cause as, again, as Rob's already putting out, they've already done other board work.

Right. And none of this stuff happens. So all of a sudden when they come in, it's when you're trying to turn the ship that it happens. So this is. Uh, uh, I was there, not there at the time this happened, but, uh, uh, just a quick little story. There was someone who, for a particular school's board, they were trying to make this turnaround and they were talking about very, you know, mission related things, right?

It was all about spirituality. And, and one board member turns to another board member loud enough to make sure that everyone heard, um, and said. When are we gonna get done with this mission stuff? But it wasn't stuff that he said, when are we gonna get done with this mission stuff and get into the real business?

Erin Barisano: Right.

Kent Hickey: Well, that is the real business.

Erin Barisano: Sure.

Kent Hickey: So I think once it gets going, it's easy to get to keep going. Cause that's what people want.

Erin Barisano: Yeah. And what I mean, what you're describing is changing culture. That's exactly one of the things that, again, the language that you chose in this white paper in particular, is very, very intentional.

Tell me a little bit more about you. You mentioned the head of school is the director of the work. I wanna dig into that a a little bit because, again, you don't, we don't see this often when we're talking about school governance, but there's a very, very beautiful language.

Kent Hickey: So I, I actually in, in my last, um, couple years at Seattle Prep, I started putting that under my name, so it'd be president slash director of the work. And the reason why was while I was hired by the board. It was a corporate board to be the president. I was missioned by the provincial to be the director of the work.

Erin Barisano: Okay.

Kent Hickey: And it goes back to apostolic work. The work is an apostolic work,  part of the church, the director of the work. And it goes back probably more to when there were mostly religious leaders, you know, clergy or what have you who were doing it. Because it fits more within that. But I would say the most important of those two titles is the director of the work.

Because first and foremost, what the head of school does is the one who safeguards and animates mission. That's number one. And every evaluation should start and end with that. So if a person is, uh, is doing presidential duties that are, let's say, confined to fundraising, finance facilities, those types of things, wow, what a really good manager.

Is that a Catholic school leader? Not in, in and of itself, not at all. The director of the work is the one who's looking at the mission and trying to make sure that all decisions flow in and through that animating the work. So I, my, yeah, my suggestion would be, and that's what we had in the, in that white paper you referred to as, yeah.

Kind. Kinda look at that, that you're the director of the work, but you also get a lot of people looking at you like kind of, what the hell's wrong with you? You know, like where does that come from? Well, you know, without knowing the context, it doesn't make sense.

Erin Barisano: Then it forces the conversation. Then you know, to go deeper. So again, I think, very intentional, very, very strategic language there.

Let's, let's talk a little bit about culture. You talked about kind of shifting culture, establishing culture. Um, you, you have a reference in here, of David Brooks is called Thick Institutions.

Those with rich, meaningful internal cultures, steeped in faith rather than the thin procedural ones. So, yeah, tell me a little bit more about that, thick versus that thin culture of  an effective Catholic school board.

Rob Birdsell: Yeah—when Brooks talks about thick institutions, he’s really pointing to places where culture is carried more by story than by rules.

And in a thick culture, people don’t need everything spelled out, because they already understand the story of the place—where it came from, what it’s trying to do, who it’s trying to form. That shared narrative becomes the lens through which decisions get made.

When a culture is thin, you end up compensating with procedures and policies. But when it’s thick, people act מתוך habit and conviction, because they know the story they’re participating in. And that’s especially true in Catholic education, where identity and mission are sustained less by structure and more by the narratives that get repeated over time.

Kent Hickey: So, uh, so that's, that's kind of the enculturation through narrative, which is, it's kinda like a Joseph Campbell thing, right? Where it's like the, the, uh, the mythology is what grounds, grounds the institution, right? In some way. And so there's a mythology to our schools. I think David Brooks really does capture this.

So we do use them a lot, particularly the eulogy lives versus resume lives, which is. So central to, uh, Eile in our seminars. Um, but a thick, uh, thick culture would be what you already alluded to. Um, Aaron, let's compare it to what would be a thin board culture. Um, here's the agenda. We're going through committee reports.

Um. Uh, we are, we prayed 'cause remember, we, we said the glory be. And so we checked. So we're done, you know, done with that we want. And so a thick culture is one that is so immersed in, its in its mission and its charism that things flow from that. Um, very, very clearly. There's a depth to it. Um, there's time associated with it.

Here's an example of a thick culture. Uh. I, uh, and, and thick culture has to be demonstrated through actual protocols and practice. Like it's, it's not just this serial kind of thing out there. Here, here's a great one. I just, this is something that I countered last week when I was talking to someone. I don't think that any board should ever pass any motion that was introduced at that board meeting.

You know, people are having a discussion and it's a good discussion, and then someone says, well, how about this? Okay, well. If it's new, if it's brand new, then um, it might be a great idea and waiting a little while will help confirm that. Uh, waiting a little while will also maybe reveal it wasn't so great an idea.

People get caught up in the moment, boards get caught up in the moment and all of a sudden they're making decisions as opposed to discerning. So the classic. Classic piece for thick culture for a board is, are you a discerning board? And, well, I think, you know, if you, there's, I remember some Jesuits arguing over this once.

St. Asia doesn't really, for example, talk that much about communal discernment, if at all. But you know, who does is St. Benedict. If you look at the Rule of Benedict, there's all these protocols in place that ensure that the community is a thick culture, uh, because of the level of discernment and discussion that happens as things go.

Erin Barisano: That's great. I'm glad that, that  you brought in that, just kind of explanation for maybe those. Who are listening that haven't experienced a board that is a discerning board, but really that decision making board. And I, and I do think, that that's what we see a lot of. I think that we, you know, in my experience, the board is decision making board, and that means we make decisions as they're presented to us. Of that really discerning posture. So that's a great explanation. Thank you. And you know, this  idea then, everything you know, starting with this. The recognizing that it's apostolic work, taking the time to establish the culture, um, this discerning stance, and, um, all of that together then leads to what you identify as the counter cultural Catholic School Board. Tell me a little bit about, about tha, you know, in your experience.

Kent Hickey: Well, things that we've already alluded to is it runs against the culture because of its grounding in prayer and contemplation. Its grounding in discernment. To me, the image that I have of the counterculture is out of the immediacy of the moment and thinking more long term and visionary.

Um, you know, this, both of you, but I'll share it 'cause some of our people don't know this, but you know that what happened a thousand years ago? It was at a construction site a thousand years ago, and there was a, a visitor there and asked, asked one of the workers at this construction site, what are you doing?

Do you, you've heard this right? Like so in the work and right and right. And the worker says, I'm cutting stones 'cause we've fit them together. And then he goes to the second worker and, and says, you know, what are you doing? He says, well, I have to really smooth out the tops 'cause we're gonna be putting these stones one on top of the other.

And, and then he goes to the third worker and says, well, what is it that you're doing? And the, this worker says, well, I'm building a cathedral. You've gotta have both. Like if you just have the vision for the cathedral and you don't know how to cut the stones and put 'em together.

Kent Hickey: Aren't right, if all the, you gotta have that, you know, the and stuff.

But if your eyes are not on the vision, on the horizon, okay, then it doesn't really matter.

You might as well just go and build a cafe. That's fine. You know what I mean? Cafes are nice, what have you. So I think that's the, that's the distinction, you know, in a, this really thick, uh, culture is it's the kingdom of God that's being built here.

Rob Birdsell: Yeah, and that’s exactly where the counter-cultural piece really shows up for me. Because when a board truly understands itself as participating in an apostolic work, it can’t operate only out of immediacy or personal interest—it has to hold that long horizon Kent’s talking about.

And that’s hard, because it runs against almost every instinct in contemporary governance. We’re conditioned to ask, what do we need right now? what’s the pressure point? who’s unhappy in this moment? But discernment asks a different question: what is God asking of this work over time?

That’s why composition of the board matters so much. Not because parents don’t care—they care deeply—but because proximity can make it very difficult to step back and see beyond the immediate needs of one family or one cohort of students. And if the board can’t lift its gaze, then the vision starts to collapse into management.

So a counter-cultural Catholic school board is one that’s willing to resist that pressure, to prioritize prayer, formation, and mission clarity, even when that feels inefficient or unpopular. It’s choosing to build the cathedral, not just manage the construction site—and that choice shapes everything from how decisions are made to who is invited into leadership in the first place.

Erin Barisano: Right, right.

Kent Hickey: That was a, maybe a little bit of a controversial part of our white paper, but, and, and it'd be hard to do, but it's the right thing to do. And if nothing else though, you should at least limit it. You know, it should limit to people that are serving in particular leadership capacities within the school itself or something like that, you know, and a parent, let's say the parent association, what have you, but any board that is primarily parent is always gonna have problems because there'll be a number of parents that won't be able to see long.

Term vision, they're into the immediacy of their child. I'm talking about high schools here, but what's gonna happen the next, you know, four years or so? And when you're looking at things like, um, you know, helping a school right now they're, they're doing a principal search. And, uh, and, and it has to be, if you, you should have parent input on that.

I'm not saying you shouldn't, but it shouldn't be driven by that. 'cause otherwise, you have parents that are going in and saying they're gonna look at their particular interest in saying, you know, my son is the top ukulele player. In the country and I noticed that we're not devoting enough resources to ukuleles or whatever it might be.

Right. Um, and so, um, it's real. I think it's, I think we have to be much more intentional about

Erin Barisano: Yeah.

Kent Hickey: How many parents we have on. And I'm with Rob. I think the best thing to do is say none. They can serve on committees. That's awesome. That's your bench for the board.

Erin Barisano: And that, and I think again, it's just a very human response, right? To if, if we're a parent, we wanna see things. Our kids can, can experience them and that's within the next couple of years.

Kent Hickey: Right.

Erin Barisano: Yeah, that's great. I love one of the things that, that we didn't get into by it, but I encourage our, our viewers to, to go back and, and read this. Um, but you have a list of best practices for Catholic school boards and number 20, it's 20 practices. Number 20 says. The board chair and the director of the work should go out for a beverage once a month. And what comes from that? Why? Why is that so valuable?

Kent Hickey: Beers with Birdsell!

Rob Birdsell: Yeah, that one always catches people’s attention when they read it, because it sounds almost too simple. But the point isn’t the beverage—it’s the relationship. If the board chair and the director of the work only ever interact in formal meetings, then everything becomes transactional and positional.

That regular, informal time creates space for trust, for shared reflection, and honestly for the kinds of conversations that don’t fit neatly on an agenda. You start talking about how people are doing, what’s weighing on the mission, where there might be tensions before they harden into problems.

And it reinforces that this is not just a governance structure—it’s a shared apostolic responsibility. When you sit together regularly, outside of crisis or decision-making moments, you’re reminded that you’re collaborators, not adversaries.

Over time, that rhythm shapes the culture at the top. It models communion, it models listening, and it keeps the mission personal rather than abstract. And that kind of relational grounding ends up cascading through the whole institution in ways policies alone never could.

Kent Hickey: One, one of our spiritual mentors for both Rob, myself is Father Frank Maka wonderful Jesuit at Mark High for a number of years, and, uh, passed away a couple years ago, but he wrote a wonderful essay called that Catholic Schools are all about tables. And he went through the various ways. So, but there is something to be around a table, you know, breaking bread or what have you, and when that stops happening, that's a huge problem.

Uh, Erin just somewhat related to that, because we have those 20 in the, in the white paper.

Erin Barisano: Uh-huh.

Kent Hickey: And then the protocol. And I do, I encourage people to look at that too. And um, if anyone wants to discuss it further to, to, to reach out for one of us. Um, 'cause actually since it's been published, I've been working with a couple of of schools on this.

Now, best time to look at the stuff is when there is not tension, right? And so what you see in the protocols, again, it's not contract language per se, but what I, when I was looking through it again, what I was struck by was. We shouldn't just simply assume that those kind of conversations that Rob just described happen and we have to kind of build them into the protocols.

Okay. So I just wanna mention a couple things real briefly that are in there. It's, it's too much to go over in any detail, but. For example, the evaluation process is all over the board, literally at schools throughout the country, and they, they should be more clear, you know, strong, strong fences, make good neighbors kind of deal.

All right? And so and so what one of the issues is. Is when people don't do evaluations or such. And by the way, every evaluation should also include anonymous survey results from direct, direct reports to the president. It's really important for the board to hear that, and it's really important for them to be anonymous and there shall should be a a complaint procedure.

If, if one of the reports has a complaint against the president. But you know what, that can't be anonymous. 'cause the other thing that needs to happen is there has to be real dialogue and disclosure, you know, conversation between people in most, in some circumstances, that that can't happen, but in most of them.

But I guess what I'm saying is that, um. We, we should try to build in ongoing communication and a process that leads to ever, you know, more and more and deeper sharing. Uh, because then things have a tendency to not get outta hand. And I'll mention one final thing, 'cause this may be the favorite part that I have of the protocol is our suggestion is that either the president or the board chair at any time can say.

I'd like to meet with you with a facilitator present, not a mediator, anything like that, but a person that both agreed to, you know, so not, not on the board, probably not associated with the school, you know, or retired, you know, whatever it might be. I, and, and the whole point to the meeting is not to pro problem solve anything.

The whole point to the meeting would be, I, I need to let you know what I'm feeling right now, or I need to let you know where I'm struggling and I need to hear your perspective. And it's important to have a third person there because that person can then kind of, um, share back. Here's what I'm hearing and such.

So I, you know, again, I think when relationships are good, that just happens naturally. You're just having those kind of, kind of conversations where there's candor and such, but particularly when it moves toward tension, it, it really has to be an avenue, um, that people are allowed to explore. So again, that's in these protocols we wrote, um, I, I think that'd be an important one to put in into some kind of agreement.

Erin Barisano:  Great. Well, thank you. And, um, yes, I, I, I think that as, um. As we start experiencing different governance models and, and not only at, at the high school level, we're seeing lots of, uh, of governing boards, uh, emerging at the elementary as networks are created and things like that. My own diocese we're going through that right now. This white paper and the protocol. Very, very, very helpful for all of those good people who want to support this great mission of Catholic education.

Um... Any closing thoughts before we finish up here?

Rob Birdsell: Yeah, I guess just to build on all of this, I’d say the common thread is that governance has to be relational before it can be effective. Structures matter, protocols matter—but they only work if there’s real trust and care underneath them.

In particular, boards have to recognize the human reality of leadership. Presidents and heads of school carry a tremendous amount, and they need a place where they can be honest, where they’re supported, and where they’re not expected to have it all figured out all the time. If that care isn’t there, everything else starts to fray.

And I think as we see new governance models emerging—whether at the high school level, elementary networks, or diocesan structures—the opportunity is to get this right from the beginning. To build boards that are mission-centered, discerning, and genuinely supportive of the people entrusted with leadership.

If we can do that, we’re not just solving organizational problems—we’re actually strengthening the Church’s capacity to sustain Catholic education over the long term.

Kent Hickey:  Yeah, that's perfect. I think, you know, a number one job for the board is to care for the president because the president can't be going to the staff and saying, I have no idea what the hell I'm doing. I just know things are really bad. You know, that kind of, so, but when you have those moments when you're down and you're gonna have those moments when you're down, 'cause you're human, whatever.

I think to be able to have those kind of discussions, you know, I, I, I think it's really important. And, and the other somewhat related to this, as Rob mentioned and what also what you mentioned, Aaron, about what, what's happened in your diocese and the movement that, that you've made there in terms of this structure, which I think what you've done is really a national model.

I, I think more and more, and I'm working with, uh, I'm working with a diocese right now in the Midwest on this very thing. So it's going to be, um. High, a Catholic high school and three Catholic grade schools, and they're gonna have a president. Okay. This is really, I think, what should be happening at particularly mid, let's say mid-level cities around the country.

Um, those four schools don't have the resources or, or the need to have a president principal model. Right.

 But what they do need is to have a president for all of them and then have. Principles that are really focused on what's happening inside. But when I was working with this diocese, immediately, the people that are working on this and great people, great people, but all the talk was the president stuff, fundraising, finance, whatever, had to come back and say it's the spiritual CEO.

It's not something, the number one job of the president is always to be the spiritual CEO and that cannot be abdicated. So, and it's the best part of the job.

Erin Barisano:  It is the best part of the job. I, I agree.

Rob Birdsell: Yeah, and I think that’s why that language matters so much—spiritual CEO isn’t just a clever phrase. It names what the work actually is at its core. If the president loses that orientation, or if the board allows that role to be reduced to management, then something essential has been lost.

And when it’s done well, it really is the best part of the job. It’s the place where leadership, prayer, discernment, and care for people all come together. That’s what gives the role meaning beyond metrics or outcomes.

I think boards that understand this are much more likely to support their presidents in the right way—not just by measuring performance, but by accompanying them spiritually and humanly. And when that relationship is healthy, it sets a tone of trust and gratitude that carries through the whole institution.

Kent Hickey:  I just wanna add that too, like for the most part now, not always, for the most part, I loved that's, you know, 24 years I was, uh, head of school. I love the boards I worked with. Some of them are still my, really became friends over time and such as care. So even though we've been focusing on where, and there, there has been more comp.

I mean, there's no doubt about it. But also, let's look at these. The relationships are so good and I'm so appreciative of them. And I wanna mention one final thing from my end anyway, who I'm appreciated for is we lost an excellent, uh, president of schools, father Greg Gool, and I just wanna mention that he was long time, uh, right.

And you both know, uh, Greg. Um, I love, I love Greg and uh, I loved his humor.

 we used to sit in the back room during meetings. Kind of not pay attention together. Um, so maybe we're good for each other in some ways, but I love Greg GOs and, and if there's someone that to me represents, uh, the spiritual CEO, um, it's that man and, uh, who's at Loyola for a number of years.

So God bless who, God bless our friend, who I am certain is having a lot of fun in heaven right now.

Erin Barisano:  I'm certain, yes. Well, um, well, thank you. Thank you, Kent. Thank you, Rob, for, um, for sharing your, your wisdom, your expertise, your, your knowledge. Um, uh, you know, I do think that this is, is gonna be the, the wave of the future for Catholic schools. These, these kind of new governance models and, um, and then continuing to build on, on existing governance models with these boards.

And, uh, for our listeners, if you haven't, uh, had a chance to read this. Um, so please, please take a moment to.

Kent Hickey:  You're awesome, Erin. Thank you very much.

Rob Birdsell:​