Podcast Transcript

Rob: Hello, and welcome to The Next Class, I'm Rob Birdsell, your co-host, joined this time by Kent Hickey. Kent, how are you today?

Kent: Fine, Rob, how are you doing?

Rob: Good. This is a new format for us where we just chat for a few minutes before our guest. So, tell us who we've got today!

Kent: Well, we have Brandon Jacobs today. Brandon is a wonderful Search Consultant at Carney Sando at Boston. And he does a number of searches for private schools, but does a lot with catholic schools. He also does some great work in implicit bias training. Wonderful man. Although, a Philadelphia Eagles fan.

Rob: And he's got some connection to Villanova. The Pope's university.

Rob: He was a participant in our most recent ILEE seminar, which was great to have. And so, we'll be welcoming Brandon right now.

 

Rob: Hello and welcome back to The Next Class. We have our guest we just spoked about a little while, Brandon Jacobs. Welcome to The Next Class.

Brandon: Thanks for having me, guys. I really appreciate it.

Rob: Good to see you. Looks like a little advertising in your background—I like that. For Carney Sando

Brandon: No big deal. Small, subtle plug.

Kent: Very smooth, Brandon.

Rob: Almost as subtle as when Kent used to have his book in the background and would point to it.

Brandon: At least we know one person read it.

Kent: Well, my mom

Brandon: Yeah, two!

Kent: Rob, that’s a great reminder. I’ve got a new office here—I need to get my book back up. My book, “40 Days With God,” published by Paraclete Press.

Rob: Or you could just get a poster of it like Brandon and post it on your door.

Rob: Brandon, great to have you here. Good to see you. I think the last time was up at Loan Rocket. We were just telling our listeners it was great to have you there, and we appreciate Carney Sando’s support of ILEE. So you’re a search consultant—for our listeners and viewers who may not know what that is, what’s that job all about?

Brandon: Great question. I’ll give it this way: I have the blessing of working at a great company, Carney Sando, where we work with independent and private schools across the country—and really, across the world. Half of our company focuses on placing teachers and administrators—school leaders. The half I work with is the search side: executive search for schools looking for presidents, principals, assistant heads, and so on. I get to work directly with schools when they need someone in that capacity. I stop short of using the word “headhunter” because we don’t have enough time to explain why I don’t like that term.
But for lack of a better word, I play a bit of a realtor—I’m the in-between between the house and the buyer, helping make the perfect match. It’s a blessing. I’ve worked in schools for a long time, but now I get to do this work, and I love it. I get to find great leaders, and it’s a way for me to help ensure schools continue to be great, because we know school leaders drive that. It’s a lot of fun and a great learning opportunity to get to know schools at different levels and help make those matches.

Rob: Let’s shift for a moment to the other side of the house. I forget—you guys do teacher placement too, right? Talk briefly about what that looks like.

Brandon: Yes, thank you for the opportunity to talk about that. That’s actually how we started. Many folks may not know, but Carney Sando began as a teacher placement firm and is still the largest in the independent school world.
We work with candidates—whether you’re just out of college or looking for a career change.
Our team, mostly based in Boston, is tremendous. They work directly one-on-one with you if you’re looking for a job or your next opportunity.
They work by subject area, know schools very well, and have strong relationships.
They help you find your next role and build a personal connection with you.
We also host hiring fairs across the country during the hiring season, starting in January—in places like Philadelphia, San Diego, Atlanta, and Boston, which is our main one.
If you’re interested, you can find more information on our website.
It’s a great opportunity to work with a placement counselor who can help you find your next role, whether in Catholic schools, private, parochial, or independent schools.

Rob: Before I turn it over to Kent, I forgot to mention your connection to the Pope’s university.

Brandon: Minor detail. I may or may not be a season ticket holder for the women’s basketball team.
Also, you can’t see it in my background, but we’re big fans of the men’s basketball team at Villanova University—a small school outside Philadelphia.
People may not have heard of it, but we happen to have three national championships and a pope—the only school in the country that can say that.
My wife graduated from the education program there. My mother-in-law played women’s basketball there, and my sister-in-law graduated from there too.
We’re big Villanova fans, even though I’m a St. Joe’s alum. We don’t let that ruffle our feathers too much.
Actually, I have it right here—this is the bag my son won when he won the baby crawl last year at Villanova.
So yeah, we’re kind of invested.

Rob: I began my college career there in 1988. It’s amazing how the campus has changed in the past 30 years.

Brandon: It’s a testament to the Augustinians and the school’s commitment. It’s a tremendous place, especially in education.
From the impact they’ve had—obviously producing alumni like the Pope—to tremendous people in all walks of life.
It doesn’t hurt to have a really good basketball team either.
It’s a great school, and we do a lot of work with them now in many ways.So it's a great university—one of the best, we can say.

Kent: Well, I'm a Marquette guy, so I'm not a huge Villanova fan, to be honest. 1977 champions—goes back a bit.
We haven’t been as strong in basketball lately because when we recruit players, we only recruit those open to joining the priesthood. That’s a big part of Marquette basketball. If you believe that... Anyway... and we are Packers fans on this podcast.

Brandon: We all make mistakes, as we say.

Kent: That’s fine. But you know what, Brandon, it’s still good to have you.
I’ll say I’ve known Brandon for some time—I had a cup of coffee at Carney Sando, worked about a year doing search work, and got a chance to meet with Brandon and others.
It’s a wonderful firm, and there’s a Catholic practice led by Barbara Dos.
That’s kind of how Brandon and I got connected. But my question relates more to: what are you seeing in leadership trends?
Here’s what struck me about Carney Sando—they would have these Wednesday morning meetings and engage in discussions about trends.
I remember one was: when do heads of school lose their job? Is it with the second board chair or the third?So you’re very dialed into this area—what leadership trends are you seeing in schools? Independent, Catholic, whatever you’re observing.

Brandon: Great question, Kent.
One of the great things about working at Carney Sando is that we’re one of the biggest firms, if not the biggest, so we get to see things from different levels and have the opportunity to observe schools in many ways.
I think the biggest trend I’ve seen—particularly in Catholic schools, but also in independent schools—is the need for continued growth in leadership development.
There’s a shift in how we think about leadership and what it looks like.
It’s different than it was when you were a head of school or working in schools.
For a long time, there was more focus on the pastoral care aspect of leadership—whether that was a principal, a president, or whatever model the school used.
Now, the biggest shift is the need for leaders to have additional skill sets.
They need to understand finance, advancement, fundraising—areas that weren’t always part of the leadership role before.
Today’s school leader has to be the spiritual leader, the face of the school, and also lead the organization.
That’s part of the structure and, honestly, part of the struggle—finding someone who fits that very specific and demanding profile.
It’s like finding a needle in a haystack.
We tell people all the time—if you're looking for a unicorn, don't call us. Go look for a children's book.
We're looking for leaders, for drivers, for people who can do this work. Nobody's perfect.
That’s probably the biggest challenge we run into—schools sometimes have this image in their minds of a perfect leader who can do everything in every situation.
And I know I’m on a Catholic podcast, so I probably shouldn’t say this, but sometimes we joke that even Jesus Christ himself couldn’t meet all the expectations schools have.
I mean that in the sense that we forget these are human beings. They’re people who can lead, but they’re still human.
The pressure that comes with being a school leader today is very different.
Maybe not higher or lower, but definitely different than it used to be.
Now you have legal conversations, financial responsibilities, and many other layers that weren’t always part of the role.
So part of our work—and part of the broader effort across the independent school world—is to build leaders, help them understand the skill sets they need, and prepare them for tomorrow, not just today.
Schools are rapidly changing, as they should.
The last thing I’ll add is about tenure.
We’ve seen a shift over the years. It used to be more common to have leaders stay for 15, 20, even 30 years.
Now, five to seven years is considered a strong tenure.
And there’s nothing wrong with having a great leader for five years.
Schools change every three to five to seven years anyway.
So the key is matching the right leadership with the right opportunity at the right moment.
Not every leader is meant for every moment—and that’s okay.
Programs like ILEE help build that kind of leadership.
It’s no longer about being a one-trick pony—it’s about the whole piece.
It’s different than it used to be, but it’s exactly what we need right now, and it’s exciting to be part of it.

Rob: Brandon, when we had our first seminar at ILEE in 2019, we had 17 heads of school.
Today, only four are still in the same job.
One has retired, and the rest are still in education in some form, but they’ve changed roles.
That really speaks to your point about tenure and turnover.
What do you think is at the root of that shift—from 15 to 20 years down to five to eight?

Brandon: I’ll put my sociology hat on for a second—maybe not my Carney Sando hat.
Trends and changes can be predictable, but also not.
I think part of it is the world we live in today—with everything swirling around politically, economically, and socially.
It might have been the perfect storm.
Schools are looking at opportunities and saying, “We need a leader who can do this or that.”
So I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing that people are moving on.
However, we do lose some institutional knowledge and depth when that happens.
To answer your question directly, I think it’s a combination of factors.
Some leaders have been in place for a long time and decide to move on.
And like you mentioned earlier, Kent, about board chairs—there’s a shift that happens there too, and that plays a role.
COVID, right? Honestly, in so many ways, people changed their minds and situations.
When we talk to leaders now, they’re thinking about what we call the “big three”:

1. Am I going to be happy in this job?
2. Is the job going to be worthwhile in terms of my work, experience, and passion?
3. Is my family going to be happy?

That third rail is a huge part of this.
We don’t talk about it enough—a spouse, a child, something comes up—and that’s life. And that’s okay.
It’s not the end of the world.

Tenure isn’t just a leadership issue—it affects teachers too.
My wife works at an independent Catholic girls’ school outside Philadelphia.
She took her job on August 18, 2018. That kind of late hiring wouldn’t have happened 10 or 15 years ago.
Teachers used to be locked in. They were going to be there forever.
We believed in contracts—and we still do—but now there’s more flexibility.
The need to prioritize family is real.The teaching world has changed.
In the last few years, we’ve seen stories in the media about the decline in education and teaching.
It’s real. It’s a hard field—probably harder than it’s ever been.
But also more rewarding than ever.

When that perfect match comes together, people make decisions—and that’s okay.
Is it sustainable long-term? I don’t know.
I think things will settle out and improve over time.

But schools need to accept that leadership might change every few years.
That’s not necessarily a bad thing—if we’re prepared for it.

One of the bigger issues—independent and Catholic schools alike—is the lack of continuity.
Who’s second in charge if something happens?
If someone leaves, do we have a chain of command in place?

A lot of schools don’t.
They don’t have a number two or number three ready to step in.
Then you end up with interim leaders and instability.

It’s not the end of the world, but we can do better.
We need to prepare the next group of leaders—even if they’re not leading yet.
Expose them to what leadership looks like so they’re ready to step in when the time comes.

Kent: Really good stuff, Brandon.
It seems like over the years—and I was first a head of school in a previous century, started in 1999—there used to be an assumption that the principal would move into the president role.
That’s not the case anymore.

You’re talking about managerial expertise and pastoral leadership.
Both are essential for a president, and no one goes into that role fully formed in both areas.

Have you seen more leaders being drawn from outside education?

Brandon: Yes, absolutely.
I’ll use a bad analogy—you mentioned the Packers earlier—think about football for a second.
There’s a general manager and a coach.
These are two separate roles, and not many coaches become general managers, and vice versa.
They’re different jobs—and that’s okay.
Schools that understand the president-principal model—started by the Jesuits—recognize the power of having two amazing people who can handle both aspects.
That’s the real treasure behind it.
It would be a bit aloof to think you could just transition into that role without considering the different skill sets required.
To your point, Kent, having folks with different experiences and backgrounds is valuable.
A big shoutout to the Cristo Rey Network—they do a tremendous job thinking about leadership and structure.
Many of their leaders come from outside the education world, and that can be a great thing.
They bring different experiences and perspectives, while still being able to serve as the spiritual leader of the school.
But that also requires having a strong principal who understands the difference between the roles.
Someone who’s fully committed, not one foot in and one foot out.
It all leads to a great symbiotic relationship that benefits kids.
It’s about knowing your role, staying in your lane, and working in partnership with the other person to move things forward.
We see this a lot.
We’re constantly tapping folks and getting creative.
Sometimes in school leadership, we get locked into what we think a “proverbial leader” should be.
We create a box around what leadership has to look like.
We challenge people to think differently—not just outside the box, but to ask why there’s a box in the first place.
Let’s open it up.
Who’s the best person to work with teachers and understand their world?
Does someone need 20 years of teaching experience to understand the grind and exhaustion teachers face? Not necessarily.
There are people who understand that.
And yes, there are great educators too.
But they need a different skill set to do the job.
It’s a bit of both.
Sometimes you have to take a step back to take a step forward—rethink the model and structure without losing sight of the long-term goal: to spiritually and academically support kids.
Period. End of sentence.
How you do that is the part I’m talking about.

Kent: Let me just follow up on one of the comments Brandon made—about the box.
I love the way you phrased that.
Let’s talk about why there’s a box.
One of the things you’ve done, Brandon—and I sat in on one of these and thought it was excellent—is implicit bias training.
The things you brought up in that session—some of them I hadn’t thought about, but they were so good.
Boards, who are usually doing the hiring, like all of us, tend to create a box.
Can you explain how you approach implicit bias training to help open up different ways of viewing candidates?

Brandon: Great question, Kent. I appreciate that.
About five years ago, we had a lot of conversations at Carney Sando about how we—as search consultants, board members, search committee members, and educators—look at resumes and cover letters.
What are the barriers that cause us to overlook candidates or not give someone a fair shot?
So we created a training, about 90 minutes long, that we offer to many of our search committees.
It’s optional, but it’s been really helpful.
It’s a chance to pause and talk about the human nature involved in decision-making.
We’re not wagging our finger telling people, “You’re awful and you make terrible decisions.”
Quite the opposite. We’re saying, “You’re human.”
On average, people make about 35,000 decisions a day.
There’s a good chance you’re going to make a mistake.
It’s about understanding that this is normal.
Our approach is to take a different angle.
Let’s talk about the box—how organizations, search committees, and groups can take time to understand the individual biases that show up in these conversations.
We’re not going to check those biases at the door—they come with us.
So how do we give ourselves grace, compassion, and empathy to be okay with that, and challenge ourselves to improve?
Research shows that the more you talk about bias, the more you develop a shared language around it, the better off you are.
That’s how we approach it.
We’re not trying to eradicate bias—we’re trying to acknowledge it.
We’re trying to bring it into the conversation with ownership.
“I’m human. I’m going to bring this part of myself. I might like this person because they went to Marquette. I might love this person because they wear Cheeseheads on Sunday afternoons.”
Fine. That’s okay.
But at the end of the day—who’s the best person for kids?
Can I set those preferences aside?
It’s been really helpful for our schools.
We want to give people grace, depth, and understanding to reflect on how they make decisions—before jumping into resumes and interviews.
We all have the best intentions, but we’re going to make mistakes.
We’ve really enjoyed doing this work—over 200 sessions in the last couple of years.
We do it with schools, search committees, admissions teams, college counseling groups, and boards.
It’s about helping people pause and ask: “Am I potentially biased in this situation?”
Nine times out of ten, the answer is yes—and that’s not the end of the world.
It’s about saying, “Okay, with that in mind, how can I make a good decision now and moving forward?”

Rob: We’re going to take a brief pause and get a word from our sponsor.

 

Sponsor Message: Catholic Virtual is a proud sponsor of The Next Class 2.0 and is dedicated to supporting Catholic school leaders.
Our partner schools turn to us for online teaching solutions that fill teacher openings, expand course catalogs, and provide students with alternative learning experiences.
Learn more about how we can support you at catholicvirtual.com.

 

Rob: Welcome back to The Next Class, Brandon. We’ve talked a lot about leadership, transitions, and trends.
Why would a school use a search firm?
Why not just go it alone?
What would you say to a school facing a leadership transition and considering a search firm?

Brandon: Great question, Rob.
For me, it’s a few things.
First, I’ll say this out loud—schools can do this on their own if they’d like.
But leadership is one of the most important things a school does.

Brandon: With the exception of recruiting great families, educating them, and keeping them safe, the third most important thing a school does is hire people.
Recruitment, retention, and structure are critical.
As a search firm, our role is to be that third rail—outside the internal conversation—offering suggestions and recommendations.
We’re not here to tell you exactly what to do. It’s your school.
It would be presumptuous for us to walk in, get to know you, and say, “Here’s what you should do.”
We listen. We learn with you throughout the process.
And for schools, what you’ll discover through working with us is a lot about yourselves.
We gather information and data. We ask the hard questions that you sometimes can’t ask internally.
That’s a big part of what we do.
The second part is our network.
It’s expansive. You may not be able to reach everyone on your own.
We have access to great leaders—some of whom may not be actively looking or may not think they’re ready to lead.
When I first reached out to Kent a couple of years ago about a placement, he may not have been thinking about Garces in California at that moment.
Our job as matchmakers is to think outside the box and do what’s best for your school.
The power of a search firm is in being that outside partner—taking some of the weight off your shoulders so you can focus on leading your school.
We take that responsibility seriously.
We’re honored and lucky to work with great schools.
My wife jokes that every time I go on a site visit, she writes on our board, “We’re not moving to X school,” because she knows I fall in love with these places.
I get excited because we’re helping find great people who will change kids’ lives.
If nothing else, the money spent working with us is well worth it.
Finding a great leader who will stay and thrive—so you don’t have to repeat the process in a year or two—is worth the time and effort.
So for us, it’s about helping your school and finding great people through our network.

Kent: Let me follow up on that last point with two quick questions before we wrap up.
First, about interim leadership.
That’s actually how I met Brandon—I served as interim president at Garces in Bakersfield while they transitioned to a president-principal model.
They’d never done it before.
I actually liked it a lot.
I’ve told people I wouldn’t want to be a permanent head again—I did that for a long time.
But interim roles are interesting.
And I tell people it can be really good for a school to have an interim.

Brandon: It is.
The way I look at it—and how we often frame it—is that it can be a great setup and a gift to the next person.
A good interim, like you, Kent, can help reset the mechanisms at a school that need to move forward.
Sometimes we launch too quickly into hiring a new head without dealing with what came before—whether it’s trauma, transition, or just time.
Especially when replacing a head who’s been there a long time, we think we can just switch gears to someone new.
But that’s not how it works.

Brandon: It doesn’t always go that way.
So I think having an interim is a great option for schools to pause for a bit.
Find someone who can lead the school operationally while the community figures out the cultural piece.

Why it’s a gift to the next person is because, as new leaders, we often don’t get the time to really get to know things.
We have to do everything on the fly.

We sometimes call it the “year of anthropology”—where you try to figure out what’s going on.
But as a new leader, you don’t always get that luxury.
There’s so much happening right away.

An interim can handle the immediate needs, so when the new leader steps in, they have time to truly understand the community and the experience before making big decisions.
That sets them up for success.

It’s not perfect for every school, and it’s not always possible.
But if a school has the chance and the opportunity to bring in a great interim leader as a stopgap to reset, it’s a powerful tool.

Rob:
Brandon, shifting from leadership back to teaching for a moment—are you seeing trends around the teacher shortage that was massive a couple of years ago?

During the pandemic, one school Kent and I worked with through ILEY had 20 teacher openings in one year.
This past year, they only had six.

Catholic Virtual stepped in with virtual teachers when they couldn’t find in-person staff.
We’re not seeing the shortage as much now.
Are you?
Can you talk a bit about trends in teacher turnover?

Brandon:
Yes, Rob. That’s a great question.

It’s helpful to have context.
Sometimes the media—or just the reality of the situation—can make things feel worse than they are.

The teacher shortage a couple of years ago was definitely a huge concern.
But it may not have been as catastrophic as it seemed.
There are still great people out there who care.

What happened during the pandemic is that teachers were also dealing with their own families and personal lives.
When those pressures collided, many had to make tough decisions.

One of my best friends was a math teacher for years.
He was recruited by an outside organization that saw his skills and offered him a remote job—no parents, no classroom management, better pay.
He took it.

He was a Teacher of the Year candidate, and he left because of the realities of life.
Now that things have settled a bit, as you said, Rob, things are better.

But here’s my disclaimer to schools:

During the pandemic, in 2020 and 2021, parents got a front-row seat to their kids’ education at home.
They saw what teachers deal with every day.
There was a wave of gratitude for educators.

But that was followed by a backlash—questions like, “Why aren’t schools open yet?” or “Why do teachers get summers off and I don’t?”
It was a strange whiplash effect.

Brandon:
And it, it happened so quickly. That’s what I—my personal opinion—caused this dissonance and this real battle with teachers and the shortage that created this national narrative of, “Oh, they don’t wanna work,” or “They don’t wanna do this or that type of thing,” versus saying, “These people work their tails off all day long and they care about what I consider to be the greatest commodity in the world, which is your child,” right? To be there.

Where’s the respect for that and the understanding of that?
So I say that as a cautionary tale of like, we could be back in that situation again very soon if we’re not thoughtful around both the economic needs that are there for teachers, but also, if nothing else, just the respect of realizing these people give their lives and their passion and their careers to help impact your child’s life and really impact the world ultimately moving forward.

We need to understand that and get creative, if nothing else, to realize that we need to meet their needs.
So whether that’s—some schools I’m working with right now, for example, or I’ve heard about—that, um, four days teaching, one day off, and they have a different model and structures.
Like, are there ways to get really interesting around the fact that teachers don’t have the same flexibility that other fields do?

And if we don’t get smart about that, the next generation of leaders and teachers are gonna see that—and they already are right now, right?
To say, “Why would I go work in a classroom every day when I can work from home, or I can be nimble and be flexible?”

There’s just something to be thoughtful around that moving forward.
So I think, Rob, we’re in a better spot, and I think it’s moving forward in a better way.
But if we’re not continuing to commit to the impact and the wellbeing and the mental health and the economic structure for teachers, we could be in a situation again where we’re gonna need them more than we did before.

So it’s just more of a thought to not think we’re out of the woods quite yet.
I think there’s still a lot of work left to do.

Rob:
I remember when Kent and I were at Marquette High many years ago together, and we had parent-teacher conferences one night.
And so we got a late start the next day—at nine instead of getting to school at 7:15, we got to get there at nine.
And I took the dog for a walk and I was like, “Huh, so this is what normal people do.”
“Yeah, this is what the sun looks like at this time in the morning,” right? Because you’re so...

Brandon:
And that’s the reality of it.
That, again, part of it that—and again, my wife’s an educator and I love her to death, and she works at a Catholic school as well—but she’s a different person in the summer than she is during the nine, ten months out of the school year because of what goes on there.

And that takes a toll. That takes time and effort.
And these are folks who give their lives and again, so much of their effort to be there.

How we respect that—both in, again, we—everybody’s like, “Oh, just throw more money at them.”
That’s not the solvent.
Sometimes that’s not what they need.

So really listening and hearing from your teachers and hearing from educators what they want and what they need, I think counterbalances or balances along with the need for leadership that we talked about before too.

What are leaders going through?
And I assume their jobs are different than they used to be too.

So all that to say, education is not as simple as people make it out to be.
And I think as we think that through moving forward, it’s gonna be really important.

Kent:
Well, just quick follow-up with that is—back in those days, those parent-teacher conferences at Marquette High—this is Milwaukee—there actually was a keg.
And so people would walk around with beers as they go to meet with...

Brandon:
Maybe that’s the solution?
I don’t know, Kent. I can’t say that out loud and keep my job.
Not sure if that was an awesome idea, looking back at it.

Kent:
But the other point that I’d make is just regarding your last one, Brandon, is that actually one of your competitors who does a lot of work in Catholic searches put out a blog saying it really is about compensation. Just about compensation.

Brandon:
Mm-hmm.
And of course that is important...

Brandon:
I don't think any Catholic school leaders are looking for country club memberships.
I think they're—I think compensation definitely has to be examined, but they're looking at purpose, meaning, making a difference, right?

Kent:
Yep.

Brandon:
And how does their family fit into that, right?

Kent:
Yeah.

Brandon:
It's a part you need to remember too, right? Thinking about tuition remission, thinking about college—I mean, all these things that are there.
I think it's, again, it's realization that teachers are not these, um, these stoic statues in front of your students all day, right?
These are caring individuals who have lives of their own and situations.

So yes, I mean, I think it's part of it to think through the total compensation—we talk about just the total package that's there—is both respect.
I mean, there's teachers that I've worked with, especially in Catholic schools, right?
To your point, work for the mission, not for the paycheck, right?

Kent:
Mm-hmm.

Brandon:
But you're not gonna find a better person and a more caring person.
And they could—they would do it ten times outta ten.
But if you give them more money, that's not what they're looking for.
You actually go the reverse effort—like you're not listening.

So a lot of it is taking, sometimes, again, this larger approach to teachers to realize that if we want to keep them, we want to grow them, we want them to be who they wanna be—we have to know who they are.
Actually, who are they as individuals? What do they need in a lot of ways?

And that can sometimes be time.
That can just be the growth and availability.
You can educate—more education—whatever it is, right?

It's not that we need to be beholden to teachers' needs.
We need to be respectful of them.
We need to know that they're also part of it and not just cogs in a wheel.
They are the wheel along with you.
It's a whole picture across the way.

Kent:
And having said that, there are a number of Catholic schools that really do have to examine their compensation.

Brandon:
Yeah, totally.

Kent:
Exactly.

Brandon:
Exactly.

Kent:
They're making less than half of the local public school and such.

Brandon:
Yep, exactly.

Kent:
So they're—I mean, that's the family thing too.

Brandon:
Yep.

Kent:
That's a huge part of that.
Religious take vows of poverty.
The lay people don't, you know, kind of live it.
It's kind of always a joke, so...

Brandon:
Yeah.

Kent:
Anyway. Well, Brandon, we could go on and on, but I wanna respect your time.
And we do have one final question that we ask all of our guests.
You did a little homework, so I think you know what's coming.

Brandon:
Yeah.

Kent:
Who was your greatest teacher and why?

Brandon:
Yeah, so I did.
With the exception of my grandmother, who I will always call to be one of my greatest teachers in this role, along with my parents—my favorite teacher of all time, I'll give you two really quickly.

One is my second grade teacher, Robin Wayman.
And we still talk to this day.

And why I say that she was my favorite teacher—she was the first teacher I had, even though at that point then and even today, who saw me for more than just myself.
And saw me for what I could be, right?

And I think that's the power of education—not just looking at the current child or the person in front of you, but seeing past them.
See through them and with them to what they can be.

And she was, and still is to this day, a person who was able to do that for me personally.
That changed my life.

And then the other one really quickly is my college professor, Dr. Raymond Gunn, who, interestingly enough, left the education world—talk about education—partly 'cause he fell in love with a study he did regarding male nurses, actually, which involved my uncles who were both male nurses.
And he became a male nurse—but that's another story for another day.

But why he was so important is that he was the first African American male teacher I ever had in my life.
And it wasn't until my junior year in college that I had him.
And I walked into the room and felt like for the first time, like, “Whoa, this is interesting. This is what everybody else has kind of felt like for their entire life.”

And it's not to say that—and again, hopefully people here hear me loud and clear—it's not to say you have to have a person that looks like you to be your educator, obviously, right?
The person I mentioned before, Robin Wayman, is a white woman who was just absolutely tremendous in many ways.

But Dr. Gunn related on a level because I think that he saw me as what—and he took me to a place in which I didn’t know I could get to.
Because I think that teachers, on the backend of seeing through you, they tap into the potential because they want to see that potential in you.

And I think for me, having both bookends—the teachers who were both at the beginning of my career and the end of my education career—who saw that in a lot of ways, they were rock stars then, they’re rock stars to this day.

But they’re people who cared, I think, more than just the curriculum.
They cared about the character of the person that I was and who they were.
And that’s why they were so impactful—both for me, but for hundreds and thousands of students.

And I would say probably why I’m an educator today—because of two people like that and others who I could go on all day about—who believed in not just the book and what we had to learn, but how we were to live.

And I think as you tie that together and think about a lot of ways that we think about Catholic education, we think about education as a whole—that’s what it’s about.
It’s about how do we make students and people better tomorrow than they were today.
Period. End of sentence.

And it’s about adding that fourth R to the three R’s we used to talk about—reading, writing, arithmetic—which I still don’t understand how that works.
But the fourth R of relationships.

And really, those are two teachers who built relationships and built character and built people in me that I’m forever indebted to.
And I hope that I can continue to give that to somebody else moving forward.

Rob:
Great. Well, Brandon, great to see you.
Thank you for joining us on The Next Class.
I’m sure your insights will be greatly appreciated by many, many leaders out there.
So thank you for your time.

Brandon:
Thank you both. I really appreciate it.

Kent:
Thanks, Brandon.

Brandon:
No problem. Awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much.

Narrator:
Thank you for tuning in.