Podcast Transcript

Rob Birdsell: Hello and welcome to the next class. I'm Rob Birdsell, joined by my co-host Erin Barisano. Erin, how are you?

Erin Barisano: I'm doing great, Rob. It's always good to be here with you.

Rob Birdsell: Likewise. How are things in Orange County?

Erin Barisano: Yeah we're moving along. It's a great school year, so really proud of my schools.

Rob Birdsell: That's awesome. How about the rain? Has that affected you?

Erin Barisano: Not too bad, not too bad. I mean, we sure, we sure needed it. So, um, we're, we're grateful, but you know, us in, in California, Southern California, we, uh, we're kind of paralyzed by the rain.

Rob Birdsell: I remember that. It was like, snow. It was like, this is just rain people. Yeah. What's the big deal?

Erin Barisano: Everybody just kind of stops in their tracks. They don't know what to, what to do.

Rob Birdsell: Yeah. So Aaron, we've got a conversation today about Pope Leo's apostolic letter drawing New Maps of Hope issued October 27th. We're quite timely on this. I, uh, I'm impressed how quickly we got going and this is marking 60 years since bravissimo educazione. Could you pronounce it?

Erin Barisano: Yes. Yes. Bravissimo educazione.

Rob Birdsell: Yeah. I wasn't even close. And Erin, as we've talked about, um, we're at an inflection point for Catholic schools.

Erin Barisano: Yeah.

Rob Birdsell: We're educating 1.7 million students in the US down from 5 million in the sixties. Were facing declining enrollment, a youth mental health crisis, digital distraction and cultural polarization. But, this letter isn't defensive, it's bold. The Pope calls calls us choreographers of hope. I just, I loved that phrase. Um, and today we wanna explore what that means with someone with two people who think deeply about Catholic education at the university level. Um, Angela Mitchell, and John Reyes from Boston College, Roche Center. Can you tell, do you know these folks?

Erin Barisano: I do, you know, I had the privilege of, of working with John, in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. We were on the same team together. I was an associate superintendent and he was a director of educational technology. So, actually we were there exactly the same time, those same five years before moving on to it, to different things.

Rob Birdsell: And look at that timing.

Erin Barisano: And good timing. I was just talking about you, John, and, and talking about our time in LA together.

John Reyes: Ears are burning and I'm also in LA now too, that's probably why.

Rob Birdsell: That's awesome. Well, John, welcome to the next class. Um, and excited to see you Wednesday.

John Reyes: Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Final seminar.

Rob Birdsell: What about Angela Mitchell? Have you met Angela before? Erin?

Erin Barisano: I've met Angela. I'm looking forward to, to meeting her and talking to her. You know, I spent some time in Ireland when I was in college, so, um, it'll, yeah. Well, that'll be fun to, to meet her.

Rob Birdsell: There she is. Likewise. Right on time.

Erin Barisano: All right. Hey, Angela.



Rob Birdsell: John and Angela, welcome to The Next Class. And it is great to have you each here. Uh, Erin and I were saying that John, it's gonna be great to have you back out at Iley on Wednesday. So I get to see you almost every day this week. And, uh, Erin was given a bit of your background how the two of you work together in LA. Ccould for our listeners, could you just give a quick introduction and background and your role today at Boston College's Roche Center?



John Reyes: Yeah. Yeah. Really happy to be on the podcast. Uh, my name is John Reyes. I work with the Roach Center for Catholic Education. Within the Lynch School of Education and Human Development at Boston College, I serve as the Director of Research and Program evaluation. I've been in this role for four years, going on five. I've had a number of different roles in Catholic education. I started off my career in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles as a teacher at St. Bernard School in Glassell Park in northeast LA. And then I had the pleasure of working with Erin Barisano in the Department of Catholic Schools under the leadership of, of Dr. Kevin Baxter. I was there for five years as the director of ed Tech. And then, I got the urge and the call to move across the country from Southern California to South Carolina. I served as an assistant superintendent in the Diocese of Charleston. So for our 32 schools in the state of South Carolina. Uh, was there for about two years and then, uh, served for a year, uh, at NCEA as the executive Director of Operational Vitality. Helping the organization through its shift to digital platforms during the COVID-19 pandemic. And then have been blessed to be part of Dr. Melody Wittenbach team alongside Angela Mitchell here. And serving Catholic schools through higher ed. So really excited to be on this podcast. And good to be with Erin again. Good to be with you, Rob. I feel like the next couple of days at ILEE in, in low Rock are gonna be incredible. So looking forward to our third and final seminar there.

Rob Birdsell: That's great. And Charleston is getting the next Christ array school.

JohN Reyes: So exciting. Yeah. Talk about a diocese that's on the rise. I remember when I was at NCA, it was one of eight dioceses that actually grew during the pandemic, that first year of the pandemic. So it was really, really exciting to see. So.

Rob Birdsell: Yes. That's really cool. And Angela, welcome. Will you give our listeners a little bit of your background?

Angela Mitchell: Sure. I am coming to you from Dublin, Ireland. I also work for the Roach Center and in a very Catholic way I live and work in Dublin, work for the Roach Center. At Boston College, but here in Ireland. I'm the Director of Leadership Formation programs here. So I run a number of programs for educational leaders in Catholic education here in Ireland. My own background, I suppose I'm Irish and from the west of Ireland. I was a, a school teacher, a Catholic school teacher, and then a Catholic school principal in inner cities school here in Dublin for 13 years. And during that time I went back into, I dipped in and outta study always, and, and came back repeatedly to leadership studies. And that led me eventually to Notre Dame, to the University of Notre Dame. I did the REIC program there and I worked for further Alliance for Catholic Education for four years and then started this year with Boston College. Uh, I, yeah, very much enjoy my work in formation.

Rob Birdsell: That's great. Well, welcome. Thank be, before we dive into this this amazing Postic letter, let me share why this matters personally to me. In 1984, the Jesuits at Market High awakened something in me. I still remember Father Bill Dor and said at parent night, this is freshman and freshman parents, and he stood there, very humble, small Jesuit, but had a booming voice. And he said, if you want a school to get your son into Harvard, you chose the wrong school. But if you chose a school to get your son into heaven, you made the choice. That confidence, that prophetic boldness is what this letter resonated for me. So to begin, John, let's, let's turn to you first. So you work at the intersection of research and practice in Catholic education as you just shared. When you first read this letter, what struck you? What, what jumped off at the page for you?


John Reyes: Uh, I mean, off the clip, I think in, in that first section of the letter, I think, you know, Pope Leo makes this case. This, this ever ancient, ever new case for Catholic education, that it is consistently relevant, right? And, and sometimes, when you come across people that. Have opinions about Catholic education that serve in Catholic education. Um, you sometimes get the impression that people don't feel that what Catholic education has to offer is, is relevant for their present day. And, and I think what Leo says off the bat is that because Catholic education is, is focused on the integral development of the human person and the development of the person is Imago Day, it will always be relevant. Because it's not just about skills. It's not just about technical competencies. It's not just about college and career readiness. It's about this, this bold trajectory of the human person towards heaven. And, and like, I, I love that off the bat. He's like, what we're talking about today with Catholic schools is relevant in this day as much as it was 30 years ago. As much as it was, I'm doing the math roughly 41 years ago when you were at Market High, Rob. As relevant as it was 60 years ago during sort of the peak of Catholic school enrollment here in the United States. And it's because of that focus on the, the integral development of the human person. And that really sets the stage for everything else that's said about formation, about technology, about educating, you know, for the poor and for the marginalized. It's such a fitting document, such a fitting letter to come 60 years after Visio.

Rob Birdsell: That's great. So we're gonna dig into six themes. We could have done many more. In fact, my first go round, Erin and I are working on a white paper. I think it got 13 sections. Yeah, it was, I just totally geeked out on this. And John, thank you for the suggestion to dig into this. So, Erin, do you wanna take theme one and, and run with that one?

Erin Barisano: Yeah. So, Pope Leo really makes this again, this beautiful case for, education as formation, as opposed to just this functional training, right? The functionality of education and as Catholic schools really focusing on that formation of, of the whole person. Let's kind of dig in into that theme, that formation versus that, that functional training and your thoughts on that.

Rob Birdsell: Angela.

Angela Mitchell: Yeah, sure. Well, I have to tell you that, I was in Rome when, when this letter, came out and I was very excited because I had in my heart to go to Rome for two things this year. One was to visit Rome in the Jubilee year for education because my own faith journey, I think really sparked. At the last Jubilee in 2000, I was at World Youth Day and I was a student and I was gifted a trip to World Youth Day. And I think it was one of those moments where I encountered the life of the faith, the life of the church. And it was at a time when, in Ireland it wasn't always, easy to find young people in the church and to feel that the church was relevant. But I remember going to Rome and seeing the liveliness of it, you know, just the university totality of it. So I really wanted to go back for the Jubilee. The other promise I had made myself was that if John Henry Newman ever became a doctor of the church. I'd definitely go to Rome to see that happen, because equally so, John Henry Newman and Ireland have a beautiful relationship, you know, a long lasting one and when I was a student, the other part I suppose was my, my favorite place to visit. My favorite church still today is Newman's University Church here in Dublin. And it's just around the corner from me here on St. Stephen's Green. And, John Henry, who had always been a friend of mine, I would say from childhood, from his poetry into his prayers and then later as an educator. I couldn't believe how beautifully fitting, it was for Pope Leo to make him, you know, a doctor of the church, a Copare Catholic education, and then to release such a beautiful letter that just captured to me, what Newman has taught us all along, which is that, you know, the formation of a person, is really centered on the development of the whole person, you know, and the importance of relation relationships in that development. So I think that's what Pope Leo is really saying to us is that we always have to remember that formation is person centered. Education is person centered, who we believe the person to be in front of us is very important. And we are not, he uses the term a skills profile. We're not developing a skills profile. You know, we are thinking, that every student in our school, every person in our school has a face, a story, a vocation, that they're called to something. And again, that's a very newman idea, that we are all committed to a task, to a vocation. And we might know it in this life, but we'll know it in the next. That was what really struck me is just. That focus on the person, the person of the teacher, the person of the student, the person in the community. I suppose Parker Palmer's idea that we teach who we are, that, that who we are is really important and that we form a whole person. That's what really struck me. It was just that, that sense of, um. Of the, of the beauty and the, and the dignity of the person and our understanding of the person, John. Yeah.

John Reyes: Yeah. I wanted to kind of pull something in there. Um, you know, in, in the letter Leo talks about this, this need to not compartmentalize the person. Right. As part of that is seeing the human person as being integrated that we, that we don't lose. You know, when we say we, we educate a skills profile, he's saying that that's not sort of the only thing, but that's an integral part of it. We do wanna form the skills and the competencies and the mindsets of the young people that are interested to our care, but we know that when we do that, we are touching these humanistic processes. These, you know, it's, it's the pure tell hard de sardine sort of saying about how, you know, we are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience. And these human experiences and these spiritual components of our, of ourselves are, are deeply integrated and, um, I love the Newman connection appropriate here, obviously because of his declarations of doctor of the Church, and there's a, a line in the letter that talks about, you know, schools being, and I'm gonna see if I can find here a beacon in the night to guide navigation. It reminds me of that John Henry Newman hymn of, you know, of Lee Kindly Light. And I love that imagery and that symbolism of education is a light that carries the human, uh, person forward in, in his or her formation.

Rob Birdsell: You know, John, carrying on that theme at Ilea, we, uh, we've talked, uh, a lot about David Brooks distinction between resume virtues and Eulogy virtues that seems relevant here. Could, could you expand on that? And I know you were gonna be given a little talk on that at the later this week, I thought I'd tee you up.

John Reyes: Uh, yeah. Uh, I think that distinction I is important and, and nderstanding that the two are deeply intertwined, right? We don't actually form them kind of in isolation. We don't just form resume virtues on one day or one instructional block, and then we do sort of our eulogy virtues on the other side. You know, they're deeply intertwined. And when we're working on sort of our capacity to, you know, engage in higher or thinking skills or for our engage, our capacity to lead, to advocate, or to, you know. Maybe engage in critical thinking or whatever they're done in a way that also touches our capacity to be compassionate, to be empathetic, right? And that integrated notion of formation, I think is, is super important. And I think one of the things that the Catholic school can do well at its fullest expression is that the Catholic school has to be uncompromising in the way that it forms those resume virtues, but always provides the context about how to order and orient the formation of those virtues towards things compassion and empathy and the pursuit of justice and truth and beauty and goodness and all of those pieces. And in my mind, I think that integrated formation, that sort of dual, um, sort of recursive pursuit of uh, resume virtues as well as utility virtues is the heart of what we do in Catholic education.

Rob Birdsell: Great. Erin, any final thoughts on theme one? Oh, well, I just, again, the, you know, and John, you, you talked about this in the, in the introduction, just the, the timeliness of this, and this it's written for us in Catholic education, um, for all the ages. Right. I mean, it, it was, it was relevant to that same consistent message and staying the course and, um, just reiterating what we've been, what we've built on. And, you know, one, one of the, the kind of the introductory comments of the genealogy. Of Catholic education going back to the Desert Fathers, and again, this is a timeless message when we talk about this Christian anthropology, the formation of the person. And I just love that Pope Leo is committed and adamant about this message, and again, never, never swaying from it. And that again, for me as a practitioner. Is just, uh, just affirming in the day-to-day work.


Rob Birdsell: Great, thank you. Um, theme two. This is one that really got me excited. The science of spiritual formation. The Pope's first new priority, he is got six new priorities. The first is the inner life spaces for silence, discernment, dialogue with conscience, and with God. And remarkably neuroscience backs us up. John, I've been studying at the recommendation of your fellow, uh, Holly Elkins, uh, Dr. Lisa Miller's work from the Awakened Brain. Did you happen to pick that up when she recommended it?

John Reyes: No, I did not. You'd have to elaborate a little bit more.

Rob Birsell: Okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you, uh, Angela, by chance, have you read it? The Awakened Brain.

Angela Mitchell: No, I have not.

Rob Birdsell: Okay. I highly, highly recommend it. It, it talks about the science of spirituality. So here just a couple data points to share: 80%, uh, protection against oppression, when a mother and child value spirituality, it is the largest protective benefit and resilience literature. The number one way to prevent depression in young people is to have a spiritual life. Also, I mean, science proving what the Pope is talking about here. MRI Studies show the cortical thickening in spiritual individuals in exact brain regions that weaken in depression. She found that if you pray, not five minutes a day, but if you pray 20 to 30 minutes a day over 10 years, it literally changes your brain. I mean, again, this is science. She's not a Catholic. This is, this is neuroscience. The practices that build moral character, altruism, love of neighbor, literally strengthen the brain. So John, uh, how should the science reframe how we think about the youth mental health crisis in our schools? We've, we've been treating it mostly as, as medical therapeutic, but I would argue the Pope. And now neuroscience suggests something deeper that we might be facing a spiritual crisis. Yeah, what do you think?

John Reyes: And I think the, the specific findings that you cited from that, the, this idea of how 20 to 30 minutes of prayer over a 10 year period of time rewires the brain and creates sort of that psychological resilience. Like that's a very distinct element of spirituality, right? It's this, this focus on the interior life, this focus on contemplation and, and I feel this is something that we've explored at ILEE as well, but I think that we're seeing kind of more and more as sort of the pervasiveness of social media technology. I think. Continues to take hold and take root in our society is that you can very much tell when a person lives a very, an almost exclusively exterior life and does not have that space for interiority, for contemplation, for silence. And I think, you know, when we look at the, the apostolic letter when it talks about in 10.3, right, the inner life. Being the priority and the inner life, not only being a space of refuge, a space of encounter, but being a space of depth. There is depth in withdrawing from sort of the exteriority of everyday life that builds resilience, that builds character, that builds, the capacity to deal with the challenges and the complexities of, of the world that we live in. And I think it connects to some of the secular science around sort of the rewiring of the adolescent brain. Like Jonathan Height talks about it a ton in the anxious generation about the rewiring of childhood. And he talks about how, you know, just the constant connectedness is, is drastically impacting the mental health of individuals. And I think what you're offering here is a solution is a way to, um. To move forward by focusing on that interior life, that, that space of contemplation. Um, and I think that Catholic schools, by practice, by prayer, by sacraments, um, by modeling cultures that are built on, you know, creating spaces of introspection, I think they offer something that's radically transformative.

Rob Birdsell: It's good. And Angela, you're in schools, you were a principal. How do we create these spaces for silence, for discernment and dialogue with conscience? When we know students are constantly connected, as John was alluding to, they're constantly distracted. How, how do school leaders that are listening, how do they create these, these spaces for silence?

Angella Mitchell: Well, I think what Pop Leo was saying to us is that we walk this road together, you know? I would say the first thing as a school leader or as a teacher is to, is to create this silence in your own life, uh, which is also difficult, you know? I think it's one of the, the greatest gifts we can give our school leaders and our teachers, uh, our space to think about their students, place to think about their, their community. Away from their community. You know, just sometimes just having time to reflect. And I think that's the, that's the interior practice of the person, of each person. Where can we find our own silence? Can we sit in silence? I always get worried about myself if I don't want to be in silence, you know? And I think that's the, that's the piece for all of us. We busy ourselves and we have many distractions in today's world. And our schools are busy places. So I think as we, as I've developed my own philosophy of education over years, I would, um, I would say I've come to a space where I think about doing less and doing it better, and creating space in the day where we have time for play. We have time for talking, we have time for reflection. We have time for, um. For meditation and, and teaching children that, and realizing that for all of us, it's a process. So we might start with one minute, we might start with two, we might build up to five. But can we sit with ourselves? Uh, that's, that's something we have to do for ourselves. And I think, um. You know, it's, it's one of the things that the school leaders struggle with a lot. One of the things I, I joke with our school leaders when I'm in our, in our formation programs is that, you know, if you are sitting at your desk thinking about your school community and somebody comes in, are you tempted to grab a pen and pretend you're doing something else? And nearly all of them will say yes. Because, because sitting thinking doesn't seem like busy work. And yet thinking about your school community, thinking about your people, thinking about what is the next thing to do is probably the most important thing that you can be doing as a leader. It's what I wanted, a leader. I want somebody who's thinking about us. You know? It's, it's that. I think first of all, we have to model it for people that we as leaders, as teachers, are calm and peaceful and have time within our day for prayer. I've spent a lot of time with the Benedictine, uh, sisters and monks in the, in the west of Ireland, in Kyle or Abby and in Glen Stole. And one of the thing I've learned from both of them is, is just the habit of prayer and the habit and of, and, and order of prayer. Like how you build that into your day. Um. In a really, in an authentic way, not in a performative way, but in a way that actually allows people to connect with God and connect with themselves. I remember meeting a, a monk years ago, and I quote him many times in Rome, and, uh, he looked very peaceful and he was in a very peaceful, beautiful monastery. And all of us, we were, we were a group of very busy. Principals and school leaders and we, we were like, but how? How do we bring this peace back to our busy world? Like you should see the places we work. Like you just couldn't be peaceful if you worked where we worked. And we, we asked him, tell us, give us something that will help us. And he said to us, do you have a window in your office? And we all had a window in our office, thank God. And he said, well, do you take time in the day to look out the window? And we said. Oh, oh, sometimes, you know, and he just encouraged us to just into our day build in times where we stop, where we reflect, where we pray, and just notice nature. Notice the seasons as a start and, and have spaces that we pray. Uh, that's something I do a lot now with, with the principals I work with and with the school leaders. I help them to identify times in the day they can pray. Places in their life that they can pray holy places, places that they can go to, and then places that they can restore, you know, uh, where can they go on pilgrimage, um, in the short and in the long term. You know, we all need the bigger pilgrimages, but sometimes we just need small, um, bursts of, of peace in the day and in the week and in the month. So, that's something I think that we have to do first for ourselves and then to think about our school community and say, well, how do we, how do we model it? And then how do we provide for it? And, and give value to it. You know, really how we, if we give value to it, I think that's also the important thing.

John Reyes: Yeah. I want to add on there, that, that whole idea of giving value to spaces of silent contemplation of prayer. I think one of the, the important sort of mindset shifts is understanding that that piece and that, you know, that, that you shared from that anecdote, there is actually a sign of incredible strength and discipline and resilience. Right. You talked about the practice of like, you know, start with one minute of silence, then two, then five, then 10, and, and do it in a way where you're truly sort of sitting in that silence. That takes incredible discipline and as somebody who has tried and failed multiple times to incorporate sort of space of silence. And I'm not currently a school leader, even now I'm finding it difficult. How much more difficult is it for a school leader to find that? But I think if we frame it as a way to, to build strength and resilience, that there's great discipline in that. The same kind of discipline that allows for a leader to be transformational to move a community forward, to act courageously in the face of challenges or whatever that, that same sort of wellspring of strength is also the same wellspring of strength that can be cultivated, the same discipline that can be, you know, any crystallized through silence and contemplation, rather than just saying, oh, that person has peace. How nice that that person is peaceful, they don't really know what's going on. Like, there's actually deep strength and deep discipline in there that all leaders can benefit from, that impacts their practice of leadership holistically.

Rob Birdsell: There's um, a great story from Father Thomas Keating who is sort of the godfather of centering prayer in America, and he was giving a retreat on centering prayer and the silence that you both are talking about. And a nun, uh, was sent off to do 20 minutes of silent prayer. And she came back after 20 minutes and she said, oh, father, I am a fail. You're at this, I, I utterly failed during my 20 minutes. And he said, well, why? He said, she said, I had hundreds of thoughts that came to me. And he said, oh, that's beautiful. That's hundreds of times to come back to God. It is to your point, John, it is difficult, but it is important. Another quick story. Uh, Cardinal Bernadine here in Chicago when he was Bishop Bernadine was walking across the seminary one day and a young seminarian came bounding up to him and said: Bishop, how's your prayer life? And it froze. And he realized he didn't have a prayer life. He said his prayers and he, he went to church. And that day forward, he committed to 15 minutes of silent prayer every morning. And when he became Cardinal Bernardin, it went to 20 minutes. And according to my pastor, upon his passing, he was doing 30 minutes of silent prayer every morning. And he told Father Watts, my pastor, that it changed everything.

Rob Birdsell: Erin, you wanna wrap up theme too?

Erin Barisano: Yeah, no, I love, uh, you know, Angela, I love what you said about modeling it and I think in, in year, year in leadership formation, we all, you know, we all work with, with school leaders in, in our, in our various roles. And, um, and not only do we need to, to model it and, and be people of, of contemplation. Stillness. Um, but what you also said, placing value in it. And so, you know, and I have found giving permission like, yes, you, you need to give people permission because we live in a world that, um, that values busy. Right? The busier you are, the more successful you are, the more efficient you are. All, all of those things are these badges of honor and, um, and to take a step back and to not only place value, but just that very practical step of giving permission to, to do it, I think, um, I think that that has, has gone a long way with, with my leaders and, um, and it changes everything. Absolutely. Absolutely. That, that, uh, that deep thinking, that stillness. Um, it has certainly changed the way that, that I lead and has, um, I think made me a more impactful leader in this, this work that I've been called to. So, um, just to have Pope Leo again, just reaffirm all of that, how powerful for us as, as a Catholic educational leader.

Angela Mitchell: Absolutely. And he's talking about discernment and the importance of discernment today. And you can't discern if you don't have time, if you don't know how to, you know? Yes, yes. So that's, I think that's, it's, it's a great reminder for all of us not to be busy fools, you know, to right. To take that time and to be intentional about how we give our time and where we give our time. It's a great gift. There's, there's lots there for formation. He, yeah, he says a lot.

Rob Birdsell: Great. Let's move to theme three. Serving the poor as identity, not charity. Here's where I think the letter gets prophetic. Quoting him the Pope. For the Christian faith, the education of the poor is not a favor but a duty where access to education remains a privilege. The church must push to open doors and invent new paths because losing the poor is equivalent to losing the school itself. I mean, amazing. So he, the, the Pope calls education of the poor, not a favor, but a duty, this identity language, not charity language. How does this moral framing differ from typical American policy discourse about educational access? I'll go to John because I, I threw in the, you could probably answer it from an Irish perspective after that, but, but it's a different way of looking. At it. So, John, what, what are your thoughts on that?


John Reyes: I think one of the questions that we grapple with in Catholic schools here in the United States is who is, who are Catholic schools for? Right. And there's the, the old saying from, you know, Cardinal James Hickey, who is, you know, in, in, in, in Washington. He talked, you know, he was asked, you know, um, he made the comment about how, you know, we don't serve. We don't serve students and families in Catholic schools 'cause they're Catholic. We serve them because we are Catholic. Right. And I love this affirmation and I, I'd had this highlighted, underlined multiple times about how losing the poor is equivalent to losing the school itself. And I think in 2025 what we're challenged to do, in addition to reckoning with the question of who is the Catholic school for, is who are the poor. Right? And I think, you know, we have in this image, you know, people that are economically disadvantaged, you know, people that are, you know, uh, second language learners, you know, different pieces that, people, you know, who are facing trauma or whatever. So I think our, our definition of who the poor is. Um, needs to be expanded because I think poverty looks and feels and sounds a lot of different ways in our modern society, right? So it's not just, uh, economic poverty, right? It could be spiritual poverty, right? It could be, um, you know, a, a poverty of psychological wellbeing because of trauma, because of adverse childhood experiences. And so. Like, I think the challenge, one of the challenges sort of embedded in this call to, to make sure that we continue to serve the poorest identity and not charity, is that we need to push back against a vision of Catholic education that is. You know, kind of simply a refuge or a space that is set apart from society, something that's idyllic. Something where, you know, if, if families are coming from messy situations, we kind of want to not have them part of this community. 'cause we're trying to create a community of Christ-like believers or Christ-like people. Right? But like, what we need to do is understand that a Catholic education is best expressed in a world and in a context that is, that is sometimes as, as messy and sometimes as unresolved as, as the world that we live in. And you know, I wrote here in another piece that like, you know, we can't have Catholic schools that withdraw from the messiness of deep division within our society, right? Because what that does is it trivializes, ignores, or discards the part of a child or a family circumstance that makes us uncomfortable. You know, Leo writes in this letter that, that encounter with the things. In, in with, with the aspects of kids and families', lives that might be messy or unresolved are encounters that deeply transform us. Like encountering that messiness, encountering sort of the, the unresolved parts of people's lives are part of how we are formed and transformed, you know, holistically. And so, yes, we need to, to serve the poor and, and understand that who, who we consider as poor needs to be expanded, but understand that that's integral to our salvation. It's part of our journey towards heaven, just as, as much it is for the kids and families that we serve in Catholic schools.

Rob Birdsell: hat's really a good point around the poor. What is, I remember talking to a Jesuit when I was at Christ Dere and trying to get him to, to lead one of the Christ dere schools. He was at a traditional Jesuit school and I was saying, oh, you know, come and serve the poor. And he said, I am serving the poor Rob. And to your point, John, it was the poor in spirit. He said, you know, these families that I serve are broken, and they're as impoverished as the students. You serve a different type of poverty. But that's really good. Um, Angela, turning to the Pope mentions some women pioneers, Mother Cabrini, who, Erin and I love the movie and highly recommend it. St. Catherine Drexel, I'm very fond of. And look at the Drexel Fund. Uh, obviously Elizabeth Seton, uh, they didn't wait for permission or perfect conditions. I mean. Uh, mother Cabrini man, get outta her way. Yeah. Another one he, he, he didn't mention, but Dorothy Day. These women, they started schools and tenement, uh, the frontiers serving populations no one else would. What would that kind of innovation look today and what risks should leaders be willing to take?

Angela Mitchell: Well, this is a topic, uh, that's beloved to my heart because I was a, a Loretto school principal and a teacher. So I don't know if you're familiar with the Loretto order, but, um, it was founded by an English woman, Mary Ward, also, uh, the congregation of Jesus, I suppose. They're, they're also known as that and they've recently come together. But she was, she was a visionary herself in that she wanted education for girls. She wanted to start an order that. Would be women teaching out in the world that would, uh, I suppose be a society of Jesus, but for women. She was ahead of her time. I think she was, uh, frequently referred to she and her, her teacher friends were referred to as Scalloping girls. Um, but she had this sense that, that women in time would come to do much and that they were called to be secrets of truth in juries of justice. And that's something that is still, I think, something that inspires Loretta schools worldwide. And personally has inspired me through my own formation with Loretta sisters that I worked alongside, and my first principal was Loretta sister. And what she used to say to us always, uh, sister Patricia, was that, um, you know, it's to do what is necessary. I suppose first of all, and that's the piece that I think all of us are called to is, is to know our people, know who we're called to work with and not presume that we know what's best, you know? I think that was one of the things I learned first as a young teacher in a, a very disadvantaged community at the time, and one of the teach the children said to me, you don't know what it's to grow up in the flats. And she was right. I didn't. And I set about learning, you know? And I, and I think that's always what, what John Henry did, I think, in trying to set up the, the university here in Ireland in setting up his school for boys later. But I think it's also something that those women did was really see, well, who are the poor and who, who needs help today? Um. And I think it's something that we have to think about as Catholic schools because it's very easy to, to offer it to people who can pay for it to, we don't have that situation in Ireland, but at the same time, we have a more diverse population now and we have to think always about how are we, how are we answering the call of the people in front of us? So that's what I think they still say to us today, uh, education is an act of justice. You know. I think Pope Francis said that to us as well. And, and Pope Leo refers to it, this idea that, that to teach is a, you know, it's a mission of love because first of all, you have to know your students, know your people, and then help to see how they can, can flourish. And we all flourish in different ways. Uh, what another, another English man I love, um, although I have to be careful now because he was actually born in Bell Pass. But he's an Oxford man. CS Lewis would would always say that, how I think it's, uh, monotonously boring are all the tyrants and how gloriously different were all the saints, you know? And I think that's always something that inspires me as a teacher, as a leader is thinking about, well, who's in front of us and how do we help them flourish in the way that they're called to flourish, uh, in a very integrated way. And I think that's something that, um, that pop is reminding us again and again, is that. Christian education is holistic and we just have to, to support and walk with and those lovely cynical words, you know, a company walk with listen, a dialogue. I think that's what we're called to do and it certainly in our world today, we're inclined to shut ourselves off from people who don't agree with us, who don't hold the same views. And I think Pope Leo is saying to us today, uh, no. We walk with people, we encounter, we dialogue, we listen, we learn together. We don't presume to know.

Rob Birdsell: Erin, you wanna wrap up theme three before we take a break?

Erin Barisano: Yeah, well, and again, it is who we are. I mean, we go back to today's gospel, you know, the blind beggar and, and Jesus reaching out and what is it you want me to do? nd I think that that's we have, um, these families coming to us and, and we need to ask them that question, what is it that you want us to do? I mean it's just the fabric on on which we've been, been built. And again, Leo, in his in his wisdom really knocks knocks that point out for us.

Rob Birdsell: You beat me to it. I was gonna use the gospel later on, but I stole, I stole my closing. I gotta quickly come up with a closing. We're gonna take a brief break here to hear a word from our sponsor.



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Rob Birdsell: Okay, the break is over. Okay. Theme four, and I didn't think we'd ever get to six. What was I thinking? We're really gonna get through in, in, under an hour, but let's, let's jump to technology, AI in the human person. This is obviously a really hot topic. Uh, let me quote 'em here. No algorithm can substitute what makes education: human poetry, irony, love, art, imagination, the joy of discovery, and even learning from mistakes. Um, John, we'll go back to you. The Pope calls for digital discernment. Lemme just beautiful digital discernment. What does that mean in the era of AI tutors, adaptive learning platforms, predictive analytics.

John Reyes: You know, the, just the last few things you mentioned about AI tutors, predictive analytics, personalized instruction, those are things we've been talking about in education for a a while. Yeah, right. Like, AI just happens to bring sort of a new approach, probably some more sophistication to some of those things, but like, at least in sort of the broader K 12 education space, you know, we've been trying to automate certain things. You know, it was blended in personalized learning 10, 15 years ago. Right. It was computer assisted, you know, instruction, you know, even going back 40, 50 years. Right. Like the, the historian Audrey Waters has written a ton about sort of the integration of technology and sort of teaching machines, right? So, so. Like that whole prospect is, is nothing new. Um, I the phrase digital discernment because, um, what it requires is attentiveness, right? It's, it's a, it's attentiveness to, to where our learners are, to where we are, to the space of different technologies and tools in the space of education. And in the letter he says that, you know, hyper digitalization can fragment attention. And presence and attention is such an important, um. I, I think asset in terms of discerning how, you know, digital tools, whether it be ai, now it's generative AI. You know, 10, 15 years ago it was blended and personalized learning, adaptive learning tools. Um, who knows what it's gonna be sort of in five or 10 years. But, but we will always face this challenge of how do we best implement the tools and the, the resources that we have at the present day. Um, but I think just those, those practices of attentiveness and discernment I think are really important. Also, um. One of the things that I had kind of seen on on LinkedIn a couple of weeks ago, um, it was a gentleman by the name of Reyes, no blood relation to me. Um, he works for an organization called Digital Continent and has this thing called the Faith in AI Project. And he had shared sort of this reflection about, you know, how, you know, people within education sector is within the church and sort of within broader society are, are struggling with how disruptive. Generative AI is to people's livelihoods, people's jobs. And one of the things that he says, sort of in response to that is that the, the, the Christian response is one of accompaniment. How do we walk with people through the disruptions? Positive or negative, right? So I'm not, I'm not trying to attach any sort of sentiment to the disruptions of ai, but understanding that disruptions sort of happen whenever technology is introduced. So what he says is that in the face of sort of what AI is posing to us, um, what we need to do is, is, is accompany people and walk people through, you know, how the disruption sort of affects them and continue to walk with them on the journey of how are they constructing and making new meaning. Out of the work that they do, the lives that they live, the relationships that they have in the face of, of these new technologies. And I think attentiveness, um, and I think the, obviously the digital discernment that, that Leo talks about is important, but also this kind of stance of accompaniment to the people and to the families who kind of, their, their realities and their worlds are changed and sort of disrupted by Kennedy's new technology.

Rob Birdsell: et's shift a little practical. So, Angela, uh, for our school leaders that are listening, um, John referenced earlier Jonathan Height's research that shows cell phones hurt learning and social development. Should our schools ban them? Uh, some are going phone free. What, what's your take on, uh, what the pope's letter tells us about cell phones? Or you could take, take ai, AI adoption. Do they ban that? So with this technology, what should schools be doing?

Angela Mitchell: I think he gives us a good direction in telling us that that technology should serve, um, and enrich the learning process and not replace it. Uh, I think that's what he's reminding us is like, you know, don't let it impoverish what we know to be important in education. We know that relationships matter. We know that it happens to quote John Henry who is quoting the Francis de Sales, again, heart to heart, you know, um, and to know its place. I suppose, and I would always say to people, don't be afraid. You know? Uh, and I think, I think Pope Leo is saying that to us. He's saying to us, you know, engage with it. Use it where it's appropriate, but also know when it's not. And, and don't let it replace. And, and I think, look, we have an opportunity here, and I think about, um. You know, what are we, what are we educating for? What are you know, what are we forming for? We're, we're hoping for holistic, rounded people. You know, John Henry Newman. I'm back to him. I can't forget about him at the moment. I feel he's sitting beside me. But this man was a, you know, a theo, you know, a theologian, a philosopher, a musician, a poet. A writer, he would not have been worried about AI. You know, he was a well-rounded person who, whose education served him for life. And that was something that he was always thinking about for his students. You know, I think it gives us a nice chance to rethink what is our schools for, you know what is our, our education for, and how de we use it? How do we embrace it, but also where do we know when it's, it's not appropriate. It's not, it's not for us, you know? Um, that's part of the discernment, I think. And again, it'll come back to how do we think well about it? And for that, we need that. We need those spaces for silence. We need those spaces for discussion to say, well, you know, who is the human person? What is education for? Those big questions the people love to talk about. School leaders love to talk about them. Principals love to talk about them, but often they get busy fixing the roof and doing the, the practicalities of, of leadership and, and running a school. So I just think for all of us, probably one of the gifts this, this letter is, is a chance to reflect and to step back and say, well, let's have time for all of us to ask those bigger questions. You know? Um, that's, I think that's the gift of it.

John Reyes: I think to, to maybe tag on a little bit, I think on that kind of the more policy question that you're asking there, Rob is, what, what, what should the policy response be? I, I mean, I think, I think whatever the policy response of schools and systems the schools decide to take up, I think it has to be co-constructive. Right. I think the, probably one of the most harmful things you might do as a school leader is just say, Hey, what? I read this, this, and this, and as a school leader we are saying whatever, no cell phones, or, you know, we're banning the use of generative ai, whatever. Um, co-construction is important, right. And I think the, it's co-constructing these policies are important for two reasons. I think the first one is. Asking those tough questions, right? So asking questions about sort of what do we believe is a purpose of education? What do we believe is a purpose of technology? Like what do we envision as how we want, you know, our young people to look at and feel when they're engaged in the formation of the person within the Catholic school. Education happens as a part of that, right? So when we ask those questions together, we learn together, right? So that's the first, I think, importance of co co-constructing those policies. I think the second one is it affirms the role of the parent as the primary educator in a Catholic school, right? So if we just impose policies, um, we don't get that, that deep parent buy-in and we are, we are robbing parents of their role as the primary educators of their children. You mentioned, you know, Jonathan Heights research and, and, and what he's talked about in the extra Generation, and one of his recommendations is that whatever kind of. Policy or practice fixes we might put in place. They're only as good as the collective agreement of a community to, to, to buy into it and then share in sort of the enforcement or the rollout of those policies. If 99 parents are on board and one parent isn't, it's not going to work long term. Right. So co-constructing, I think whatever the policy or practice response is, is, is critical.

Rob Birdsell: Erin, final thoughts on.

Erin Barisano: Yeah, and I do, yeah, just extending John, what, what you said. I, um, I, I, I agree and, and I, I think it just, um, for us as, as leaders, then, um, it really points to a, um, a, that culture of discernment that, that we've already talked around about. Um, creating the trust in, within, within your communities. And, um, and it just, I mean, it goes back to that formation, that formation piece and being really, really clear about who we are and what we do, and that's mission. And those other things then can, can come in and kind of shore that up. But when we're, when we're clear on those things and, and have created that, that, that culture of trust and discernment and we're all. Um, on board with, with that mission, then, then we can navigate these things. And, and I love, you know, um, but Pope Leo says, you know, technological progress is part of God's plan for creation. Yeah. This, this is part of the work that we do. It's not ancillary to the work that we do. It is part and parcel of this work. And we do it together. Mm-hmm. So, um, again, a a, a lot there. Rob, we could have spent like, one podcast on each of these things. There's, there's much. It's, it's just, it's really beautiful. But, uh, uh, you know, from that leadership perspective just so, much, much richness and, and again, just reaffirming, uh, much that, that we're already doing.

Rob Birdsell: That's great. Thank you for that. Um, John, Angela, we've covered a lot, but let's get real Catholic education faces declining enrollment. Aging, religious orders, resource constraints. Some leaders listening are exhausted. The Pope calls us choreographers of hope, who draw new maps. When you think about your work with Catholic educators, what gives them hope? What sustains them in this very difficult, challenging time, and how do they become and ensure that they are choreographers of hope, drawing new maps? Who wants to go?

Angela Mitchell : Oh, look, I, uh, I think, uh, it's probably the joy, well, it's the joy of my work is time with leaders. And, uh, and I, I, I often show them a picture of John Henry Newman, this one particular one where he's just got his head in his hands and he looks exhausted. And I always used to say long before he was a doctor of the church and even, uh, even before he was the saint, really, I used to say this, this man is for school principles.Because many of the things he did just didn't work out and they were difficult. And he came across. Difficulties and people who, who misunderstood him and questioned his motives and all of these things, but, but because of his, his interior life, because of his prayer, because of his deep understanding of his own mission and also, uh, understanding he was part of a bigger one.You know, that it wasn't all on him. Um, he had a freedom to move and to let go of things and to begin again. And I think that's something that, that all of us, um, can relax in, in this document is that, you know, polio is reminding us that we are a little stars, shining brightly, doing our best, but we're part of this bigger constellation, uh, and we're not alone in it.Uh, and actually he's reminding us again and again that we are part of a global church. You know, we're not even just part of a local Catholic community. We are, we're local and we're global, which is one of the greatest gifts in, in Catholic education. And I think it's something that I've seen a lot. I've, I've had a really privileged life and that I've got to work and study all over the world at different times in India and Kenya and Australia and in America, you know, and, and, uh, even being part of the European Union, we've brought all of these partnerships with the European schools and you can't, but take hope in the fact that there are people who get up.All over the world, every day. And they go into classrooms and they do everything that teachers do and everything that school leaders do, uh, to create these beautiful, joyful atmospheres for people to learn in and flourish in. And I think that's the thing that, that I really take from the document is, you know, um.We are doing very meaningful work. You know, there's meaning in it. Um, there's, there's not a day that we can waste. There's no love wasted. You know, there's, it's, it's a work of love. It's a work of hope. Um, Pope Francis used to say that that education was a work of hope. So I think whenever we, um. Whenever we, we lack hope. You know, one of the things we always have to come back to is what you were saying. I suppose here is our mission and our vision of our school, what we're about. And when we reconnect with that and we're clear on the mission, the vision, the values of our school, and then we remember that we have these people. Beautiful little people entrusted to us by their parents, who loves them, who love them much. Like what a privilege, you know, and, and what a privilege to then to see them, uh, set out on their life journey and, and know that, that somehow you gave them gifts that would help them along the way. Uh, that's what gives me hope. And I think it's what he's reminding us again and again, that, that we have people, that we are part of a, a bigger, a bigger. Plan, uh, and that we can relax in that and know that, um, we do our part and we do it well. And if we do that, you know, uh, good things happen and the, and the Lord has, has it, it's in, it's in his control. He knows what he's about. To quote John Henry again,

Erin Barisano: Do you want to do podcast? John Henry?

Rob Birdsell: Let me, uh, close it out with a, a short story. Last week I got a call from a former student of mine. Um, 25 years ago, I was his English teacher and he said to me, mark High saved my life. Mm-hmm. That was this quote, mark hit high saved my life. And that's what you're saying, Angela. That's what happens when Catholic education is true to its mission. We form whole persons, serve the poor, build community, connect students to God, it transform lives. So thank you too. These people must be happy. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I don't, yes. I think God would us to enjoy this life. So, yeah. Uh, Angela, John, thank you too for joining us in the next class. John, thank you for the idea. Brilliant idea. And as Aaron said, we could have done four podcasts just on this.

John Reyes: I can't wait. I can't wait for the next three. The next three. I know we're just setting the stage. There's more to come.

Rob Birdsell: Well, John, Angela, thank you very much.

Angela Mitchell: Thank you so much.

John Reyes: Thank you much.

Erin Barisano: Thanks. Really enjoyed it.



Rob Birdsell: Wow. That was something Erin.

Erin Barisano: Oh my gosh. It was so, I had chills many different times throughout and tears in my eyes. I'm just, um, I'm so, I'm touched by, uh, by this letter and, um, just the conversation really beautiful.

Rob Birdsell: It was, um, for those that have not read it, I highly recommend it. I, I found it incredibly accessible, Erin. Yeah. Um, yep. It, it wasn't some Roman. Something or another. Right. It was incredibly accessible, I thought. Incredibly well written. For our listeners, Aaron and I are working on a white paper that will be published. Sometime in the new year. Where we dig into, into this in, in much, much, uh, more depth. Because there is much here. Uh, Erin, any final thoughts? Care carry us home.

Erin Barisano: Well, I think that we, uh, again, as a, as practitioners, we have a great, uh, um, a great map to, uh, to navigate the, um, the future of Catholic education and, um. What a, what a powerful time to, uh, to be, uh, to be leaders in this, uh, this great mission.

Rob Birdsell: Great. Finally, thank you to our producer, Carlos, uh, and to all of our listeners. If you this, please give us a five star rating, a thumbs up, but most importantly, share this with your friends, family, and colleagues. Thank you all, and we'll see you on the next class. Thank you for tuning in.