These takeaways highlight the key points discussed in the podcast and provide a comprehensive overview of the themes and insights shared.

1. Theme of Accompaniment: The importance of accompaniment in the Congregation of Holy Cross and its influence on personal and spiritual growth.

2. Transition to Higher Education: The transition from high school to higher education involves adapting leadership skills and understanding the unique aspects of the academy.

3. Mission-Driven Leadership: Emphasizing the mission and charism of the Congregation of Holy Cross in leadership roles.

4. Whole-Person Education: The need to focus on holistic education that nurtures students personally, emotionally, and spiritually.

5. Human Flourishing: Helping students flourish by fostering authentic relationships and discovering their purpose.

6. Affordability in Higher Education: The challenges of affordability and the importance of financial guidance and literacy for students.

7. Advocacy and Reform: The need for reform in higher education and the importance of advocacy and collaboration with government and associations.

8. Liberal Arts Education: The value of a liberal arts education in developing critical thinking, empathy, and a service mindset.

9. Virtue Ethics: The importance of virtue ethics and the role of liberal arts in fostering virtuous behavior.

10. Focus on Students: Keeping the focus on students and their needs in all aspects of education.

 Podcast Transcript

Rob: Hello and Welcome to The Next Class. I'm Rob Birdsell your co-host, joinned by my friend Dr. Erin Barisano. Erin, good to see you.

Erin: Hi Rob, good to be here.

Rob: How are things in California?

Erin: We're kind of warm right now. The sunshine finally came. We had a mild July and even August, so right when school starts, the heat turns up.

Rob: Yes. My wife, who's a teacher, got air conditioning this summer.

Erin:Ah, life changer.

Rob: Yeah. But in Chicago, they'll probably only use it for two weeks, and then we need the heat.

Erin:Oh buddy.

Rob: How's the school year starting in Orange County?

Rob: So far so good. We just wrapped up our first principal meeting. A lot of good things were introduced that we'll be working on this year. I'm very hopeful in this Jubilee year of hope for a really good year.

Rob: How is enrollment in Orange County?

Erin:We've been fairly steady. I think families really have to make decisions about how they're spending their money. Last week was the superintendents' meeting, and across the state we were talking about that. The financial situation surrounding us brings a bit of fear about what the next few years may hold. We'll see how that affects us here in Orange County.

Rob: Great. Let's get to our podcast today. We have a guest, Dr. Marco Clark. We'll get his bio. I met him when he was at the Holy Cross Institute, part of the network of Holy Cross schools. Great guy—so positive, upbeat, and I really enjoyed working with him. Catholic Virtual was a sponsor of his annual meeting.

Erin:Got it.

Rob: I went down a couple of times to Austin, Texas, to St. Edward's University and really enjoyed getting to know Marco. I think you've met him too.

Erin: I did. I had the pleasure of meeting him about a year ago, last fall, at a conference—Duke and Tum. I saw his name badge and saw he was from Holy Cross, so I introduced myself. I went to Notre Dame, right across the highway. We had such a great conversation—really a kindred spirit.

Rob: Did you know about the school when you were at Notre Dame?

Erin:I knew about it. I think when I was there, it was a two-year program, almost like a junior college. Students would transfer into Notre Dame. I believe it's grown since then. When I talked to him, I asked about that, and I think it's now a full-fledged college with four-year degrees. I'm interested to hear how that transition came about.

Rob: Great. Let's get to it then and welcome Dr. Marco Clark to The Next Class.

Rob: Hello, and we are very excited to have a special guest with us today. Joining me as often as she can, Dr. Erin Barisano. Good to see you, Erin.

Erin: Hi, Rob. It's always good to see you and good to be here.

Rob: Thank you. And Dr. Marco Clark, coming to us from Holy Cross College, Notre Dame, Indiana. Welcome to The Next Class.

Marco: Thank you, Rob. Really a pleasure to be here. And Erin, great to see you again.

Erin: Thank you too, Marco.

Rob: So to start, Marco, let’s give our listeners and viewers a little background. You began as a teacher—what was the school you started at?

Marco: This is the start of my 37th year in Catholic education. I began 37 years ago as a teacher, counselor, and coach at DeMatha Catholic High School in Hyattsville, Maryland. I spent eight years there, then moved on to Bishop McNamara High School in Forestville, Maryland, where I spent the next 24 years. Both schools are in the Archdiocese of Washington—one sponsored by the Trinitarian Fathers, the other by the Holy Cross Brothers.

Rob: And from there you went to the Holy Cross Institute in Texas?

Marco: Yes, I went to the Holy Cross Institute at St. Edward’s University, continuing with the Holy Cross Brothers in sunny Austin, Texas. Then from there, I came to Holy Cross College in Notre Dame, Indiana.

Rob: How many years with the Holy Cross Brothers and Fathers?

Marco: If you include the years I was taught by them in high school, I think it adds up to about 31 years.

Rob: That's awesome. We'll get into that in a bit. Thank you for being here—excited to learn. For our listeners who may not be familiar with Holy Cross, can you tell us a little about the institution?

Marco: Sure. Holy Cross College is still a young institution, founded in 1966. It was originally part of the formation process for young men studying to be brothers in the Congregation of Holy Cross. They would spend two years here and then finish their studies at the University of Notre Dame. Locals in the Midwest thought it was a great idea and wanted their sons to have the same opportunity—two years here, then on to Notre Dame.
Part of what made Holy Cross College famous was the 1993 movie Rudy. The young man from Joliet Catholic High School in Chicago had a dream to play football at Notre Dame. He came to Holy Cross College, then went on to Notre Dame. Most people know the movie—he was carried off the field after playing one play and sacking the quarterback.
Until 2003, we were a two-year college. By 1968, we became co-ed and sent students to St. Mary’s and many other colleges after their two years. We took pride in preparing young men and women who may not have been fully college-ready to go on and study at prestigious universities.
In 2003, students petitioned the board of trustees, saying they loved it here and wanted to stay and graduate with a bachelor’s degree. In 2005, we graduated our first four-year class with a Bachelor of Arts in Liberal Studies—14 students. This past year, we celebrated their 20th reunion.
We’re still a small Catholic liberal arts college, steeped in the Catholic intellectual tradition. We integrate Catholic social teaching and still graduate some two-year associate degree students. We have numerous pathways to the University of Notre Dame. About 100 students a year go on to Notre Dame through the Gateway Program—some after one year, some after two, and some through a three-plus-one model.
So they get an undergraduate degree from us and then a graduate degree from Notre Dame.
Oh, cool.
Some of them do a four-plus-one: undergraduate from us, then graduate from Notre Dame. Really extraordinary opportunities here. A student at Holy Cross College can take advantage of what we call the tri-campus opportunities—ROTC, marching band, classes at St. Mary's or Notre Dame, full access to dining halls, recreation facilities, football tickets—you name it. All within the tri-campus community of 13,000 students. And yet, they get all of that in a small campus community like ours, which is intentional about its Catholic identity and the principle of accompaniment that we really pride ourselves on.
So there you go—a mouthful of what Holy Cross College is and what we're doing today.

Rob: No, I mean, we've talked since you arrived there, but I didn’t know the story about Rudy. That’s fascinating. What a great story. Also interesting that the students drove the decision to become a four-year college. I love that they petitioned the board—that it was really student-driven.

Erin:Yeah, yeah. Just a little bit about Rudy—I was on campus at Notre Dame. I'm a '93 grad of the University of Notre Dame, so I was there when they were filming Rudy.

Rob: Really?

Erin:It was so funny. Some of my friends were extras, walking around in 1970s gear. That football scene was filmed during halftime of a real game. We were in the stadium when they filmed it.

Rob: Wow.

Marco: Sean Astin, who played Rudy, has made appearances here. Rudy himself still visits—he does book signings at Notre Dame. His life story is really inspirational. He recorded a video for me last year that we played for our incoming freshman class. Such a great story of resilience.
And if I could just indulge for a moment—I think at the heart of the story of Holy Cross is resilience. Overcoming obstacles. Having someone believe in you before you believe in yourself. That’s really in the DNA of this place. I think there are hundreds, maybe thousands of “Rudys” who’ve come out of here. Maybe only one had a movie made about him and sacked a quarterback against Georgia Tech, but others have gone on to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers, priests, bishops. And I’ll predict that maybe someday, there’ll be a president of the University of Notre Dame who came through Holy Cross College before continuing studies at Notre Dame.
That’s really the story of Holy Cross. It’s exciting to be part of a college that’s small, intentional, and walks alongside students in their education and formation.

Erin: I really love and value what you talked about—the theme of accompaniment. The Congregation of Holy Cross has been a big inspiration and influence in my life, not just as an undergraduate, but as I’ve grown in my spirituality. What a beautiful place to be. Your entire career with the congregation—you’ve landed in such a great spot. It’s inspiring to hear all that.
What was the transition like going from so many years in high school—as a coach, teacher, principal, president, CEO—to higher ed? Can you talk a little about that transition and the difference between high school and higher education?

Marco: In many ways, I feel like God has prepared me my whole life for this moment. God brings us to our time and place. The skill sets I had to learn running a high school are ones I’ve been able to bring here. Leadership is leadership. I’ve been able to bring that to Holy Cross. Being mission-driven and understanding the essence and heart of the mission and charism of the Congregation of Holy Cross was important to the board of trustees and the brothers. I’m the first lay person here, so it was important to have someone who really understood that.
I can speak to it uniquely—as someone who benefited from it as a student, someone who’s lived it, researched it, taught it, and been part of it for most of my adult life.
Now, there are things to learn. You don’t just transition from high school to higher ed. The academy is unique and deserves respect. Learning about shared governance is also unique and important. But I also think higher ed can learn from non-traditional leaders—those from healthcare, business, etc. There’s a give and take. In today’s world, we need to be open, agile, collaborative. Higher ed is facing a lot of questions and turmoil. The more agile and open-minded we are, the better off we’ll be.
When I interviewed for this position, I faced the elephant in the room: I had 34 years of experience, but only two in higher ed. The majority of my career was in secondary schools. I knew I’d have to surround myself with people who had the higher ed experience I didn’t, and immerse myself in study.
But I also had strengths others may not have had—fundraising acumen, curriculum development, classroom experience, strong pedagogy, instructional design. I helped create a doctoral program at St. Edward’s University. And I had the mission element.
Ultimately, one of the greatest lessons I ever learned was from a mentor who taught me to lead with love.
Right. And to lead with your heart. We’ll make mistakes, but I think when we lead with love and with our heart, people are more forgiving. I’ve tried to do that as well.

Rob: That's great. I remember my first year teaching, the principal said, “As long as you love the kids, everything else will work out.” It was such great advice for a young teacher—just love them. Just love the students.
Now that you're in higher ed, is there anything you've learned in the past couple of years that you wish you’d known when you were a high school president? Many of our listeners are Catholic school leaders—anything from the academy you wish you’d known back then?

Marco: Yeah. I think in Catholic secondary schools, we spend a lot of time focused on success. Parents are very involved, and we put students on a treadmill—they have to take the right classes to get into top colleges, get the right grades, be in the right internships and programs. But along the way, they can lose their love for learning. They also lose a sense of being.
I think students today are longing to be. We want to help them flourish—personally, emotionally, spiritually. That means whole-person education. If we’re only focused on grades and courses, that’s not whole-person.
If I could go back, I’d help parents gain a broader perspective on what we’re really trying to do: help young people flourish holistically. Let’s get back to human flourishing.
I’ve been doing a deep dive all summer on the science of happiness. Arthur Brooks, Dr. Robert Waldinger—lots of colleges like Stanford, Yale, Harvard—the most popular classes today are on happiness.
They boil it down to two things: authentic relationships and discovering purpose. That’s what young people—and all of us—are looking for.
So in high schools, K–8 through high school, we need to help develop those things in our students.
Now, here’s what I think is missing. I ask this question to a lot of audiences I speak to: What’s the fifth Joyful Mystery of the Rosary? It’s finding the child Jesus in the temple, teaching. The spirit of that mystery is finding Jesus. We create encounters with God. We help people find Jesus. That’s the number one thing we do. That’s real human flourishing.
That’s what I get to do in a small Catholic college—help people find Jesus. Help create opportunities for real human connection and help discover purpose.
If I could go back and do those 24 years of high school again, I’d focus on those three things.

Erin:It’s so powerful—working with young people and helping them discover that sense of purpose. Like you said, there’s this yearning, regardless of faith tradition, for happiness, belonging, purpose—to know we are loved.
As leaders in Catholic institutions, we’ve been given this great privilege to view all of that through the lens of Catholic identity. It’s beautiful and powerful. You’re grounded in this strong and beautiful faith tradition.
Yet higher ed has been rocked, especially this past year, with challenges in colleges and universities. How have you navigated those?

Marco: First, I’d say there’s a need for reform in higher education. But we have to be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I worry about that—stripping away research funding, for example. There’s great research coming out of higher ed that benefits all of us.
So yes, reform is needed, but we need a deeper dive into what exactly those needs are.
In our case, I like to keep things simple. I’m a simple kid who grew up on a farm. Keep the main thing the main thing—and the main thing is our students.
I worry a lot about affordability in higher education. Pell Grants, for example—there’s concern about reductions in federal funding that help lower-income students afford college. That’s something we’re watching closely.
Schools with boards of trustees need to be thinking about how to prepare for that inevitability.
I think schools need to be raising funds and growing their endowments to prepare for that inevitability. We all want to build new buildings, improve campus amenities, and invest in athletics—but we need students. We need people in our buildings. So we have to keep the main thing the main thing: investing in our student population. Affordability is a big part of that.
If we continue to focus on the reason we do this—our students—I think we’ll be okay.
There’s also work in advocacy. We need to work with our associations, and also through local government. Just last week, I sat at a table with eight other presidents from Northern Indiana colleges and our local U.S. Congressman, Rudy Yakym. Rudy was all ears. We had him for one hour—we heard him, and he heard us. There’s real opportunity in that. We need to express our voice. Wherever people are in this country, they have that opportunity. We should be doing that.

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Rob: Marco, if we could stick with that subject for a minute—affordability. My kids are just finishing college, and it wasn’t cheap. They went to a public university. How do we get this right? It seems like costs just keep going up every year. You’ve spent time at St. Edward’s University, now at Holy Cross, and you're next to Notre Dame. What are your thoughts on how we get this under control?

Marco: When people look at the big picture—I don’t know that I have the answer. But I think those of us in these positions need to think creatively about how to keep it affordable. I don’t think it’s going to go backwards.
There are good options happening. More students are entering college with dual enrollment credits, AP, and IB credits. That helps. We offer an accelerated three-year bachelor’s degree at Holy Cross College—120 credits, not a reduced 90-credit program. Some states are approving 90-credit degrees now.
People should also look at outcomes, ROI, and debt levels. The national average student loan debt is around $32,000–$33,000. Ours is about $22,000. That’s something people should consider. There’s likely going to be some debt involved, but colleges and universities need to help with financial guidance and literacy.
The public narrative is often, “Why take on all that debt?” There are other job paths, and there’s a need in many fields, including the trades. I don’t want to deter that at all. But if we look at long-term outcomes, we know the benefits of higher education—not just in compensation, but in overall life opportunities. Someone with a bachelor’s degree will earn, on average, at least $1 million more over their lifetime.
Right. And if they have something like a STEM degree, it's even more than that. But there's so much more too—pro-social behaviors that are measurably improved, health and wellness that are measurably higher, longer lifespans. Even things like divorce rates and marriage rates show positive trends. So yes, there's a narrative that you don't have to go to college, but we need to understand that there are still many merits to doing it, despite the costs.

Erin:Can you talk a little bit about the importance of a liberal arts education? You explained it earlier when you gave the overview of the college, but I think there's been a shift, especially in Catholic education—even at the elementary and high school levels—toward refocusing on the gift of the Catholic intellectual tradition and liberal arts. What does that look like at the higher ed level?

Marco: It's really interesting. When you read some of the things coming out of Silicon Valley, for example—I remember leading initiatives in schools where we became a one-to-one school. We were so proud of that. Then, a decade later, research came out showing that students’ reading comprehension was lower when reading on tablets compared to actual books. We became dependent on screens.
Technology is part of life. These kids are digital natives. AI is a reality we have to embrace. But AI relies on inputs and outputs—it has no ability to believe, no ability to hope. That’s where we come in. We have to think ethically, critically, and creatively.
I recently read a book by Jeffrey Rosen called The Pursuit of Happiness. Our founding fathers—for all their faults—had reading lists steeped in virtue ethics. They read Cicero, Seneca, Aquinas, Augustine, Aristotle. Today, we’re hearing from tech leaders and big business that they want to hire liberal arts graduates. They can train them on the technical side, which changes constantly. But they need people who can think, problem-solve, work in teams, show empathy and compassion, understand history, and ultimately be virtuous.
The world is desperately in need of more virtue. That’s the real benefit of the liberal arts.

Rob: That’s great. Last season, we had Dr. Daniel Porterfield, CEO of the Aspen Institute. He has a new book called Mindset Matters and talked a lot about liberal arts—not about money, but about building the mindset that a liberal arts education fosters. The ability to think critically, which, as you said, is the most important part as we move into an AI-driven world.

Marco: I’d also add—I came out of a liberal arts education at the College of the Holy Cross, a Jesuit school in New England. It gave me a service mindset. It gave me a common good mindset. The world wasn’t centered around me. Real human flourishing doesn’t mean just me flourishing.
And this is what the Founding Fathers envisioned when they created our founding documents—the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. Real human flourishing meant all of us flourishing.
Right. And that’s really what we need to teach today’s students. That’s the value of the liberal arts.

Rob: That’s great. Well, Marco, great to have you on The Next Class. I knew it would be a fun discussion. We almost started getting into it before the recording.
We ask all of our guests one final question: Who is your greatest teacher and why?

Marco: Oh goodness. I’ve been blessed with incredible mentors. Life itself has been a great teacher. But I’d probably say Dr. Dennis Golden. He was the president at Fontbonne University and worked at several other universities before that. He’s a graduate of the College of the Holy Cross.
I came to know him because his son Dennis and I played football together at Holy Cross. We were classmates, counselors, and coaches together at DeMatha Catholic High School. Dr. Golden was someone I looked up to—as a father, a leader, and ultimately as a Catholic educator.
He’s been a mentor every step of the way. I’ve never taken a class from him, but I’ve picked his brain for more than 37 years—ever since I met him as a freshman at Holy Cross. So yes, I’d say Dr. Dennis Golden.

Rob: That’s a beautiful answer. We’ve been doing this for years, and what I love is that he wasn’t your teacher in the traditional sense. But we come across teachers throughout our lives. You’ll have to send this to him when we publish the episode.

Marco: That would be beautiful. And I had some amazing teachers too—I hope they don’t feel neglected. I just feel so blessed to have had a mentor like Dr. Golden. I seek to emulate him every day. When I have to make a decision, give a talk, or interact with students, I often ask myself, “What would Dr. Golden do?” It’s a daily, moment-by-moment reflection.

Rob: Great. Well, thank you again for joining us on The Next Class. Erin, anything you want to close with?

Erin: No, I just loved this conversation. Thank you for all that you do for your students. The message about loving students came through loud and clear. Our young people need to be loved. So thank you for that.

Marco: Thank you, Erin. Thank you, Rob. Really my pleasure.



Rob: Well, that was fun. He has so much enthusiasm. I felt like I was listening to a keynote speaker.

Erin: He’s so inspiring.

Rob: I thought he was going to jump out of his seat a couple of times. He’s got passion for his work. I love that. Father Foley, founder of Cristo Rey, once said, “If you’ve got passion and you get excited about your work, that’s all that matters.” And Marco was clearly excited.

Erin:Absolutely. And as I said at the closing, his love for the young people entrusted to him—and their families—is evident. I suspect many of them are first-generation college students. To have a college president with that much love and enthusiasm is really special.

Rob: Well, you can see he's a teacher at heart. I wrote down a few takeaways—loving students was one of the themes I really appreciated. And the story of Rudy—I had no idea. That was fascinating. But I loved how it was more than just the Rudy story. It was about resilience, which is really the Holy Cross charism. I loved how he took something that could be just a marketing gimmick and made it authentic for the Holy Cross congregation. Resilience is a core part of their charism, and it clearly means a lot to him.

Another takeaway I noted: his job—and our job in our institutions—is to help students find Jesus. And that will lead to human flourishing. I’ve never heard it said quite like that before. It was powerful—and hopeful.

Erin: It really is a beautiful mission that’s been entrusted to us. It’s humbling. It’s a privilege. All of those things.
That’s why I wanted to ask about the liberal arts. I think there’s been a shift—not only in higher ed, but also as young people go out into the workforce. Employers are looking for different things now. It was really interesting to hear that from the perspective of a college president with such a unique background—Catholic high school president and now Catholic university president.

Rob: I was really looking forward to this conversation, and I hope our listeners enjoyed it too. Any final takeaways from you?

Erin:No, just that I feel inspired. It’s great to know we have partners out there doing this good work with us.

Rob: To all our listeners—if you enjoyed this podcast, please like it, share it with your family and friends. This is our sixth season.
Season six!
So we’re not new anymore. I used to say we were new to this—help us get the word out. We’re not really new anymore. But as we said earlier in the opener with you and Kent—great to have you back, and thank you for joining me today.
To all our listeners—wishing you well, and we look forward to seeing you at The Next Class next time.